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  1. #91
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    I suppose this is relevant

    Homer Simpson, Tony Stark, and more fictional characters that definitely would've voted for Trump

    Last night, Twitter user @malkatz asked a cursed, potentially deeply depressing question: “Name a fictional character who absolutely voted for Trump. No villains.”
    The first responses started out with some unfortunate, “yeah, probably,” type answers in the form of your favorite middle-aged, vigilante, ultra-rich white males, namely Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne. Tony Stark is at the very least friendly with Trump, and Batman might be the World’s Greatest Detective, but if you don’t think he’s played his share of rounds at the Trump International, you’re kidding yourself. “Batman is definitely a never-Trump Republican who then voted for him anyway,” wrote one user.
    https://news.avclub.com/homer-simpso...ter-1836606083

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I suppose this is relevant

    Homer Simpson, Tony Stark, and more fictional characters that definitely would've voted for Trump
    On account of being European and not eligible to vote, this would definitely never include Dr. Doom, even if villains were included.

    Most Marvel characters are New Yorkers, a city and state that was heavily blue in the last election, so I don't think this applies to any of the Marvel heroes. DC because they have a lot of fake cities have less ground to stand on, albeit given that cities tend to be more blue than red, I can't imagine that being too different.

    As for Tony, I doubt it, if only because neither Jarvis, Pepper, or Rhodey would have anything to do with him if he did, and at the end of the day, Tony does care about them even if he might not care so much about the US Constitution, or general ethics, or friendships, or fidelity, or sobriety, and stuff like that.

  3. #93
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    True. But not calling fascists what they are is dangerous, too.

    Which boxes must a totalitarian warlord dictator check before we can call him a fascist?
    If you want to assert it then you need to demonstrate it because otherwise it is a hollow and dangerous accusation. But you don’t actually seem interested in demonstrating it. Instead you just assert it over and over and then try and argue against those that dispute it. That’s entirely backwards. You need to do the work here.

    Asking me how I wouldn’t define a dictator or a fascist and then arguing about it is not a thesis. That’s just circular argument for its own sake.

    I mean how can you say ‘true’ and then immediately do the opposite. I clearly implied that ‘calling fascists what they are’ is not enough and is dangerous.

    There are plenty of definitions out there. Pick one and do the work. Fascism is anti-intellectual for a reason. (Is Doom anti-intellectual? You tell me.)
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-24-2019 at 02:40 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  4. #94
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    Stark has been a strong environmentalist since the early seventies. There's no way he'd vote for the party that doesn't even believe global warming is happening.

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    This is what I meant when I said that some Marvel fans are far too into totalitarian warlords. You grow up reading that the only good Earths are those under a totalitarian regime, and this is the result.
    That's it guys. The jig is up! He's figured it out! Marvel Comics are fascist.

    And all of us fans are, by transitive socialogical mind virus principle, also fascist.

    You got us Missing Username. You got us.

    Best you get outta here while you can though. Wouldn't want to catch the fascism.

  6. #96
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    When it comes to Doom, it seems his fans are more willing to empathize with him than his victims. The reaction to Sue humiliating him in Slott's FF issue 8 being the most recent example.
    I'm not sure you can blame the fans for that, at least not entirely. It's an emergent trait based on the storytelling. Most of Doom's victims have neither voices nor faces, while Doom is given both (in a sense), as well as a sense of his conflicted soul.

    Now, one can say that this is a flaw of superhero comics, but then it's a flaw that it shares with lots and lots of fiction over thousands of years. We are meant to empathise with Odysseus or Achilles or Hector, not the common Achaean or Troian soldiers being slaughtered to show how heroic and important the heroes are.

    I haven't read the issue you refer to, but there are also other factors that might be involved. One such is that Doom is proud—it's one of his most defining traits. If he is humiliated or rejected, it goes against his very character, in a way that becoming powerless or killed doesn't do. It's also possible that there are latent misogynist factors at play, but in that case I think it adds to the humiliation rather than being something of its own. And I have no idea how the Sue fans reacted.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I'm not sure you can blame the fans for that, at least not entirely. It's an emergent trait based on the storytelling. Most of Doom's victims have neither voices nor faces, while Doom is given both (in a sense), as well as a sense of his conflicted soul.

    Now, one can say that this is a flaw of superhero comics, but then it's a flaw that it shares with lots and lots of fiction over thousands of years. We are meant to empathise with Odysseus or Achilles or Hector, not the common Achaean or Troian soldiers being slaughtered to show how heroic and important the heroes are.

    I haven't read the issue you refer to, but there are also other factors that might be involved. One such is that Doom is proud—it's one of his most defining traits. If he is humiliated or rejected, it goes against his very character, in a way that becoming powerless or killed doesn't do. It's also possible that there are latent misogynist factors at play, but in that case I think it adds to the humiliation rather than being something of its own. And I have no idea how the Sue fans reacted.
    In the story I mentioned, Doom captures the Fantastic Four and plans to execute them on live television. He also takes a moment to taunt Sue about raising her children himself after she's dead. The Four escape and Sue uses her powers to make Victor's clothes invisible on live television and have the entire world see him naked.

    The online response to this was to accuse Sue of being a bully for humiliating a man who'd made his umpteenth attempt on her life and had deliberately pushed her buttons by threatening to take her children from her.

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    He has to express the specific ideology of fascism. Note that I'm not defending Doom. Stalin was not a fascist, he was a communist dictator, and he was just as evil as any fascist. Genghis Khan was a monarchist, not a fascist, and he was just as evil as any fascist. Evil authoritarian does not equal fascist, though all fascists are also evil authoritarians.
    That seems ridiculous. Someone can only be a fascist if they declare themselves to be? A dictator could follow the fascist manual to its minimal details, and yet still avoid the label simply by saying "I'm not fascist, though"?

    Why Umberto Eco, Hannah Arendt, and so many scholars wasted their times identifying what is it that makes one a fascist if the only qualifier that matters is the word of the tyrants themselves?

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    If you want to assert it then you need to demonstrate it because otherwise it is a hollow and dangerous accusation. But you don’t actually seem interested in demonstrating it. Instead you just assert it over and over and then try and argue against those that dispute it. That’s entirely backwards. You need to do the work here.
    Definition of Fascism

    "governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism"

    Do I really need to prove that Doom does those things? Otherwise I am being too unfair?

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    There are plenty of definitions out there. Pick one and do the work.
    Well, I just picked one and Doom fit it to a T. I think I will keep calling a rose a rose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    That's it guys. The jig is up! He's figured it out! Marvel Comics are fascist.

    And all of us fans are, by transitive socialogical mind virus principle, also fascist.
    Marvel Comics does give a far too positive look on fascism (must I remind everyone that the only good Marvel Earths in all Multiverse are the ones under a fascist regime?). I don't know what was the motivation Marvel's editorial had to have young heroes aimed at children like Valeria Richards and Nadia Van Dyne to have a fascist dictator as their biggest idol. I only know that they did it.

    And also know that many fans are far too willing to see Doom as a hero, much more than they do to any other villain and even many other heroes. You can see examples of that in this very thread. It has gotten so crazy that, when Sue Storm exposes Doom's face and torso to the world after being tortured and nearly executed alongside her family, a considerable number of fans take Doom's side on the conflict and accuse Sue of being too cruel to the poor old dictator that has tortured and tried to kill her twenty too many times.

    The comment above blamed that on storytelling, just like I do. And if Marvel's storytelling makes their readers sympathize with the fascist much more than with their victims, then I have a problem with that.

  9. #99
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    I mean, you completely misread what that first post you quoted said.

    He said nothing about declaration. He said expression. Aka Doom needs to show he's specifically facist in ideology rather than you just claiming he is because he's a Dictator

  10. #100
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    In the story I mentioned, Doom captures the Fantastic Four and plans to execute them on live television. He also takes a moment to taunt Sue about raising her children himself after she's dead. The Four escape and Sue uses her powers to make Victor's clothes invisible on live television and have the entire world see him naked.
    Wonder if Slott is calling back to the Emperor's New Clothes or to Banned from Argo, or possibly both?

    Our lady of communications won a ship-wide bet
    By getting into the planet's main communication net
    Now ev'ry time someone calls up on an Argo telescreen
    The flesh is there but the clothes they wear are nowhere to be seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The online response to this was to accuse Sue of being a bully for humiliating a man who'd made his umpteenth attempt on her life and had deliberately pushed her buttons by threatening to take her children from her.
    I'm sure there are people who reacted like that, but I sure hope for Marvel's sake that they are in the minority.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  11. #101
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    Definition of Fascism

    "governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism"

    Do I really need to prove that Doom does those things? Otherwise I am being too unfair?
    You really do need to prove that these things are both a broadly accepted definition and that Doom actually meets those conditions. That is my point. Unless you do this you don't actually have an argument just an assertion, and anyone that disagrees has nothing to use as a counterpoint.

    I mean that definition misses out the key historical context from my perspective, but hey, its not my place to tell you how to argue the point. Just that you do need to argue the point not just simply assert it.

    Without this all you are left with is "I say this" and some people arguing that you are wrong, then you saying they are wrong, round and round.

    I mean, presumably you think your point is important enough to actually explain it fully and build an argument?

    Well, I just picked one and Doom fit it to a T. I think I will keep calling a rose a rose.
    You can keep saying it as much as you like, but if any of us that have actually made a study of history at any level want to actually engage in the debate we will need more than that. So you don't get to demonstrate anything and we all walk away wondering what the point was.

    I mean there probably is a valid point to be made here somewhere. I can't quite see it but you seem convinced. Don't you see that if we cant see it that's a problem that you have not us? You seem to think its so self evident that you don't need to elaborate. Many of us don't think it makes sense as an argument. We cant see why you think it is self evident. You can only make us actively engage in the topic you want to explore if we can at least find some common ground to discuss the issue.

    But even if you were to demonstrate that doom is a Fascist, and it seems feasible that he could be defined as 'Fascistic' or having 'Fascist leanings' at least, that's only half of your thesis. The other part looks impossible to assert from where I am standing.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-24-2019 at 05:30 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  12. #102
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post
    Why Umberto Eco, Hannah Arendt, and so many scholars wasted their times identifying what is it that makes one a fascist if the only qualifier that matters is the word of the tyrants themselves?
    This is precisely why some of us refuse to debate this without some solid analysis. If you yourself act in an anti-intellectual manner then how are we supposed to meaningfully discuss an ideology that is anti-intellectual?
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-24-2019 at 05:36 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  13. #103
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    I think the OP is the equivalent of Fredric Wertham's Seduction of the Innocent. He's trying (in vain for most I would think ) to save us from being corrupted by stories of a sometimes morally grey antagonist. Next time I guess he would prefer that Sue be tied railroad tracks so as not to confuse anyone.

    And for the record, I know there have been posts about Sue's tactic she used on Doom and people are entitled to their view. IMO the worst part about it is that Dan Slott has appeared to have not read any of Infamous Iron Man or Marvel Two in One and just rolled back the calendar to the 1970s. The reason he has Doom espouse for executing the FF is pretty flimsy considering the FF have shown up in Latveria unexpectedly before. It wasn't that long ago that Doom was advocating for someone else that he had vetted (a college professor IIRC) to take command in Latveria



  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing Username View Post

    Why Umberto Eco, Hannah Arendt, and so many scholars wasted their times identifying what is it that makes one a fascist if the only qualifier that matters is the word of the tyrants themselves?
    This is the death of intellectual discussion right here. "It doesn't matter what scholars observe and conclude. It only matters what is willed."

    Right now, this conversation is just a battle of wills.

  15. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I'm sure there are people who reacted like that, but I sure hope for Marvel's sake that they are in the minority.
    If they were in the minority, I wouldn't have made this thread.

    Show a page of Doom killing or hurting a person. 9 out of 10 fans will argue that Doom is right and his victims deserve what is happening to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    This is the death of intellectual discussion right here. "It doesn't matter what scholars observe and conclude. It only matters what is willed."

    Right now, this conversation is just a battle of wills.
    I don't know how you missed it, but I am not the one saying that the definition of fascism by scholars don't matter and only the fascists can identify themselves as such.

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