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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    The only way Storm can get more development than leading an X-Men team book, is in a well bought, well funded/promoted solo book.


    Where is that?


    If Storm had a solo book like that, sure, screw the X-Men, she is better off pursuing her own destiny as a global/universally minded goddess of life, transcending the x-gene and Xavier's philosophies. But I don't see current Marvel publishing division having that as a priority. So, with that reality in mind, yes, Storm needs to be in the visionary leader/badass position of an X-Men team book. That gives her the greatest audience, and the greatest opportunity for development. BP #13 sold about 21k in June. Barely in the top 100. Shuri #9 sold barely half that, at 10.7k. Even all of the horrible Age of X-Man series sold better than that. Uncanny #19 sold 51.9k, #20 did 41k, both in the same month. In pure numbers, X-Men comics matter more than BP or Shuri comics.
    What developement willl she get leading a book. She can easily be on a team and have her own motivations and her own mission statement and that being a primary reason why she doesn't want to lead a team of X-men. If Storm is leading a team of X-men it's because she is fighting for mutant rights. Been there, done that, still doing it, and don't need to be a leader to get it done. As leader she is worrying about keeping the team together, keeping the team focus, staying in control for the team. Whereas with not leading for all we know she could be the baddest bitch where everyone like "WTF this Storm been?" Come on girl we need to dial this back a notch, please." The fact of the matter is we don't know what we don't know. But this is the most promotion Storm has gotten from marvel in a long time and it's across mediums.

    100% agree on a solo book but there's no way to know that isn't happening. This is phase 1. We don't even know the staus quo yet. For all we know they could be going around spreading the word of Storm from coast to coast and building her up as a goddess. We just don't know yet.
    Last edited by jwatson; 07-22-2019 at 05:49 PM.
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  2. #47

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    At the end of the day, Ororo does have an X-gene, and since her introduction in 1975, has had primary relationships within mutant-centric books. I'm all for peppering her out in other branches of the Marvel Universe. Team her up with Blade to hunt Dracula. Hang out with Dr. Strange and do past life regression with her Sorceress Supreme ancestor Ayesha. Fly through space with Captain Marvel and Photon(Monica). Do undercover spy **** with Black Widow and Winter Solider(our girl speaks Russian!). Examine leadership and nationality with Captain America. Divinity and meteorology with Thor. Hang out with Sue Storm and Jennifer Walters in NYC. Whatever, sure, go for it. But what book is that happening in right now? They aren't doing it. And even if she was leading an X-Men team, she could still do that if publishing wants it. T'Challa is leading the Avengers while also lost in space/the future. Wolverine is all over a million books at once. That kind of stuff doesn't really matter if Marvel wants to put out the books. They don't seem to want to put out a Storm book, so her best bet is being front and center in an X-Men book. As leader she can steer the course of her team. We saw that in Claremont's XSE. She got her team official mandate. They had logistical/legal authority. They were going all over the world on various missions. She should pick up from there again, but maybe this time, deciding to go against the authorities, and lead her team on missions to disrupt climate change, help migrants, break up corrupt governments and corporations, go after the elite masterminds in their private islands and downtown palaces.

    But y'all happy with her riding shotgun with Shuri, or a phantom in BP's space opera, or taking orders from Kitty on Emma's boat.





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  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    For me who better for Storm to watch over and become the leader of tomorrow than Kitty. Let's just hope for the best for a second. Since Storm has been back at marvel completely there is a barbie, shes in marvel ultimate alliance, she was added as a five star mutant to the marvel puzzle game with the caption reading "she once send hundreds of opposing soilders into space with a whirlwind." I mean wow, a whirlwind taking people from earth to space. She has the fearless book coming up. She is in black panther. Marvel even did a top 5 character moments for why you don't want to mess with Storm. If we look at all of this the winds could be changing in Storm's direction for the best and being a mentor to kitty while free to still do fearless, still do X-men, and still get around the MU sounds like a win/win for me. Lets be real, if Storm is leading an X-team anything she does outside of it will be scrutinized. "well wish she showed that kind of oomph to protect her team. wish she did this or that."
    MU.
    I don't know how else to say it. Storm is a great character. She has been truly badass in the past. But you obviously can't write a character like that forever. I am not opposed at all to knocking a character down. But when you do that, you eventually have to build them back up at some point. Storm in BP circa 2006 was a beatdown of epic proportions. Her absences in Decimation, another huge blow. Her not being the opposing side during Schism was laughable(I personally would have found that annoying, but you can't deny it, choosing Logan over her was a joke, but further highlights how X-Writers did not want to write Storm in her proper role) Her stint in X-men by Wood, a further weakening of the character cause her leadership was constantly questioned. Then there was of course IVX. I mean Jesus Christ, can Storm actually do ANYTHING competent or have relevancy in the X-men these days? Where is her redemption story?

    I respect your optimism about Hickman, but I don't share it. I am tired of being told to wait and see and be optimistic. Of course I have no choice but to do that. Maybe Hickman can make a great Storm, but it's not looking good. She's not in the main book. He doesn't think of Storm as a leader and he has her taking orders from Kitty. I truly believe Storm is up there with Captain America and Cyclops etc when it comes to leadership. These character are at their best when leading because it showcases the characters at their maximum potential. When you take that away, from any of the aforementioned characters, they lose something cause it's such a core characteristic for all of them. Doesn't mean you can't make good stories if they aren't leaders, but I feel you still aren't presenting them at their absolute best when you do so. And Storm right now needs to absolutely be at her absolute best given her abysmal treatment the past decade.

    When she has had a decent, fulfilling run by X-writers, and been properly built up, then we can talk about her maybe relinquishing leadership to other characters. Until then, I find it ridiculous that she's taking orders from Kitty. But to each their own. I don't support the watering down of characters, and that's what I view this as. If others feel different, that's fine.
    Last edited by Saturius; 07-22-2019 at 06:36 PM.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    At the end of the day, Ororo does have an X-gene, and since her introduction in 1975, has had primary relationships within mutant-centric books. I'm all for peppering her out in other branches of the Marvel Universe. Team her up with Blade to hunt Dracula. Hang out with Dr. Strange and do past life regression with her Sorceress Supreme ancestor Ayesha. Fly through space with Captain Marvel and Photon(Monica). Do undercover spy **** with Black Widow and Winter Solider(our girl speaks Russian!). Examine leadership and nationality with Captain America. Divinity and meteorology with Thor. Hang out with Sue Storm and Jennifer Walters in NYC. Whatever, sure, go for it. But what book is that happening in right now? They aren't doing it. And even if she was leading an X-Men team, she could still do that if publishing wants it. T'Challa is leading the Avengers while also lost in space/the future. Wolverine is all over a million books at once. That kind of stuff doesn't really matter if Marvel wants to put out the books. They don't seem to want to put out a Storm book, so her best bet is being front and center in an X-Men book. As leader she can steer the course of her team. We saw that in Claremont's XSE. She got her team official mandate. They had logistical/legal authority. They were going all over the world on various missions. She should pick up from there again, but maybe this time, deciding to go against the authorities, and lead her team on missions to disrupt climate change, help migrants, break up corrupt governments and corporations, go after the elite masterminds in their private islands and downtown palaces.

    But y'all happy with her riding shotgun with Shuri, or a phantom in BP's space opera, or taking orders from Kitty on Emma's boat.





    Okay. To each their own.

    But your hoping for the same, and we're hoping for more (well some of us). She's already done XSe and Claremont gave us a great Storm full of teases once again. Xtreme X-men early issues: "Someday i will be a goddess." Xtreme X-ment he end she's fighting in an arena.

    Claremont comes back "oh snap storm created a jovial pressure, she's on the verge of something." once again falls flat. Maybe it was the mandate, i don't know. All i know is there is no mandate now, and i'm hoping for more. And fearless actually comes out before any of the Dawn of X books so that would be more recently than her leading that team. Also given the premise of the book about a ship and Kate being called the captain, i don't really see myself wanting Storm to be the captain of a ship. For all we know kitty may only get off the ship once or twice. I am more concerned with STORM and her character being developed. being a leader of another X-team doesn't change anything especially when the direction of the X-books has already been decided as Hickman and others said everything branches out of House and Powers meaing these were pitches he made for storyline direction so even if she was leading Storm would be leading somone elses mandate not her own. So i'm fine with the x-books having an overall direction with different teams and her down her own thing within and without that.
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  5. #50
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    Did you also have a problem with Rogue’s X-Men teams which have included Cable, Cannonball, Magneto, Xavier and Nightcrawler?

    Or Sunspot leading the Avengers despite being an actual New Mutant?
    Avengers chairmen and team leads be almost anyone as a running narrative idea. They aren't the same kind of team as the X-Men and by virtue of being a mutant and fighting for his life in a trained team setting, I feel like Bobby is more qualified than someone like Jan. But in any case I don't remember Sunspot leading Steve, Thor, Tony, Natasha, etc.

    And Rogue since the beginning has been varsity. Storm is easily more qualified (so is Cable to be fair) but no, I don't have the same issues.
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Avengers chairmen and team leads be almost anyone as a running narrative idea. They aren't the same kind of team as the X-Men and by virtue of being a mutant and fighting for his life in a trained team setting, I feel like Bobby is more qualified than someone like Jan. But in any case I don't remember Sunspot leading Steve, Thor, or Tony.

    And Rogue since the beginning has been varsity. Storm is easily more qualified (so is Cable to be fair) but no, I don't have the same issues.
    True Bobby didn't "lead" Steve or Tony as they were to busy fighting each other but Thor was on Bobby's team since he was the only one interested in being a hero. Bobby sent Thor & Hyperion on a suicide run to try to save everything.
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  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Storm really got screwed over by not having Morrison and Whedon being allowed to use her; she missed out on the most acclaimed runs of the millennium to be written by a past his prime Claremont, which led her to be in a position to be allowed to be taken over by Hudlin, which only led her to be sidelined in the worst possible moment, post M-Day, which made (unintentionally) her seem like she was running away when the X-men needed her the most.

    She's not really a character as defined by leadership as Cyclops is, but I do agree have her stepping down for Kitty is just non-sense. That said, I'm looking forward to see what Duggan does to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidMunroe View Post
    Just have her be excommunicated amicably. I wish these writers would admit that they don't care for Ororo and are only keeping her around because of her status as the reigning and most conspicuous token black female. I understand the ostensible outrage generated from temporarily tabling her standing in the X-Men would be astronomical but the continued degradation is demoralizing imo. Storm is too big of a character to be relegated to the role of glorified henchwoman/proxy/underling and Cyclops nor Wolverine would ever be subjected to the undignified treatment that she has been the receptacle of despite Marvel's laughable claims of championing diversity and equality all the while their most popular black female superhero continues to stagnate/depreciate.

    And this "new normal" as posited in the OP wouldn't even exist if not for woefully abysmal "writing" that Ororo was plagued with during that terrible IvX fiasco. Again, neither Cyclops or Wolverine would ever have been discredited and humiliated the way she was during that period and even if they were, they would have been redeemed in some way shape or form.

    Maybe Coates should be given unexpurgated "ownership" of her character so that she can flourish under a writer that harbours a genuine appreciation for the vagaries of her character and potential therein before she perishes in the captivity/stranglehold of the dreaded X-Office.
    Heh...Cyclops was killed off-panel while also being described for more than a year as THE MUTANT HITLER by his best friends. And he had two major events (Schism and AvX) dedicated to have him be wrong and evil (which backfired because of bad writing, but it wasn't Marvel's plan) and Rosenberg's run was just dedicated to give the middle finger to anyone that liked how he was written since Morrison. If any one of those things happened to Storm, people would call it sexist and racist, let alone all of them; no character has ever been intentionally been desecrated and kicked around by Marvel as much as Cyclops in the last years.

    Also, Hickman didn't say Cyclops needed to be redeemed, just that he won't be the guy that does the necessary evil stuff anymore. By what he said, he's very much a Cyclops was right guy, just lamenting he had to be in that position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steroid View Post
    True Bobby didn't "lead" Steve or Tony as they were to busy fighting each other but Thor was on Bobby's team since he was the only one interested in being a hero. Bobby sent Thor & Hyperion on a suicide run to try to save everything.
    Also, Sunspot at that point was a) Financing the team; b) Achieved one of the greatest feats any hero ever did in the MU; c) Most of the leaders were busy being fugitives or in a pissing contest.

  8. #53
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    But your hoping for the same, and we're hoping for more (well some of us). She's already done XSe and Claremont gave us a great Storm full of teases once again. Xtreme X-men early issues: "Someday i will be a goddess." Xtreme X-ment he end she's fighting in an arena.

    Claremont comes back "oh snap storm created a jovial pressure, she's on the verge of something." once again falls flat. Maybe it was the mandate, i don't know. All i know is there is no mandate now, and i'm hoping for more. And fearless actually comes out before any of the Dawn of X books so that would be more recently than her leading that team. Also given the premise of the book about a ship and Kate being called the captain, i don't really see myself wanting Storm to be the captain of a ship. For all we know kitty may only get off the ship once or twice. I am more concerned with STORM and her character being developed. being a leader of another X-team doesn't change anything especially when the direction of the X-books has already been decided as Hickman and others said everything branches out of House and Powers meaing these were pitches he made for storyline direction so even if she was leading Storm would be leading somone elses mandate not her own. So i'm fine with the x-books having an overall direction with different teams and her down her own thing within and without that.
    Very this. It’s time to start hoping for a different future and stop pining for highlights of the past. You will only live in disappointment if we don’t open ourselves to new and changing times with these characters. Being a leader for the sake of pride or status is not growth. We saw what happens when Storm is a leader and not well written. I’ll take an integral member of the team with personal character development and exposition over a mediocrely portrayed leader any day. That’s just me. Status means nothing without substance.

  9. #54
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Ah. I have to admit that I didn't really get into the Hickman avengers. And forgive me for moving the goalposts but on second thought, it's not like Thor isn't willing to let random people at the front of the line despite his thousands of years' experience and immense pride second only to his power.

    At the end of the day maybe I should try it, as I'll try Maruaders. But I remember kitty crying over Storm's haircut so it's quite the hurdle for me to accept. Hope Ororo has a strong role here and eventually else where.
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  10. #55
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    At the end of the day, Ororo does have an X-gene, and since her introduction in 1975, has had primary relationships within mutant-centric books. I'm all for peppering her out in other branches of the Marvel Universe. Team her up with Blade to hunt Dracula. Hang out with Dr. Strange and do past life regression with her Sorceress Supreme ancestor Ayesha. Fly through space with Captain Marvel and Photon(Monica). Do undercover spy **** with Black Widow and Winter Solider(our girl speaks Russian!). Examine leadership and nationality with Captain America. Divinity and meteorology with Thor. Hang out with Sue Storm and Jennifer Walters in NYC. Whatever, sure, go for it. But what book is that happening in right now? They aren't doing it. And even if she was leading an X-Men team, she could still do that if publishing wants it. T'Challa is leading the Avengers while also lost in space/the future. Wolverine is all over a million books at once. That kind of stuff doesn't really matter if Marvel wants to put out the books. They don't seem to want to put out a Storm book, so her best bet is being front and center in an X-Men book. As leader she can steer the course of her team. We saw that in Claremont's XSE. She got her team official mandate. They had logistical/legal authority. They were going all over the world on various missions. She should pick up from there again, but maybe this time, deciding to go against the authorities, and lead her team on missions to disrupt climate change, help migrants, break up corrupt governments and corporations, go after the elite masterminds in their private islands and downtown palaces.

    But y'all happy with her riding shotgun with Shuri, or a phantom in BP's space opera, or taking orders from Kitty on Emma's boat.





    Okay. To each their own.
    Storm clearly deserves better.

    She not a leading a team is ok, but taking orders from Kitty is absurd. Maybe it is only the solicit and in practic it is Storm that is the leader, doesn't make it better

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Ah. I have to admit that I didn't really get into the Hickman avengers. And forgive me for moving the goalposts but on second thought, it's not like Thor isn't willing to let random people at the front of the line despite his thousands of years' experience and immense pride second only to his power.
    .
    Thor is fine with other people leading the Avengers because he isn't really from Earth, so there's too much about the place and the enemies he doesn't know. Plus, his initial arc was all about him learning humility.

  12. #57

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    Thor also has his own book/franchise to get plenty of shine in.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Thor is fine with other people leading the Avengers because he isn't really from Earth, so there's too much about the place and the enemies he doesn't know. Plus, his initial arc was all about him learning humility.
    that may have been the case when he was created in the 1960s but he's been around for so long that, this doesnt hold up anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    Thor also has his own book/franchise to get plenty of shine in.
    that has never stopped any of the other big name Avengers from being lead. Captain America, Iron Man, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, etc....

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Avengers chairmen and team leads be almost anyone as a running narrative idea. They aren't the same kind of team as the X-Men and by virtue of being a mutant and fighting for his life in a trained team setting, I feel like Bobby is more qualified than someone like Jan. But in any case I don't remember Sunspot leading Steve, Thor, Tony, Natasha, etc.

    And Rogue since the beginning has been varsity. Storm is easily more qualified (so is Cable to be fair) but no, I don't have the same issues.
    Kitty has been trained to lead since she was 14 in teams that included Logan and Rogue:


  15. #60
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    x-men stans be like

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