Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22
  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Derek Metaltron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Nottingham, England
    Posts
    4,728

    Default Nice to see they’re screwing up Victor and Nora AGAIN.





    I mean seriously, Villain Nora AGAIN? Not that it matters given how they screwed their origin story up already by removing the wife aspect (unless someone has been smart enough to undo that). But now we’re gonna have to put up with evil Nora a second time. DC really needs to think how much that screws up the tragedy of their love story every time they pull crap like this.

  2. #2
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    373

    Default

    While I can understand not wanting Freeze to be whining about Nora in every appearance he makes, I can't say I'm a fan of the Lazara thing or any other way they've tried to "fix" this problem in an ongoing narrative.

  3. #3
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    42,448

    Default

    I don't know if we need Supervillain Nora Fries. Kinda preferred how Arkham Knight and the DCAU tie-in comics handled her post-freedom.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Derek Metaltron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Nottingham, England
    Posts
    4,728

    Default

    Honestly I think it would be much more interesting to have Freeze become an anti hero akin to Doctor Octopus with Superior Spider-Man with Nora revived rather than a villain Nora if you wanna change that dynamic radically

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    2,958

    Default

    was the first time the one where she gained fire power?

  6. #6
    Spectacular Member Batknight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    136

    Default

    Mr. Freeze is such a great, horribly limited character. Is it any wonder writers keep trying to change him? You can only do the whole 'my wife is dying so I need to steal things because my boss screwed me over' shtick before he loses any sympathy. And his entire character is dependant upon being tragically sympathetic. But he becomes less so the longer he's around. Especially since Bruce could just pay for all of Nora's treatment anyways which takes away any motivation for Freeze to be a villain. And then what do with him? Do you cure Nora and have her leave him (considering what he's done, no normal person would stay with him) like in the BTAS? Where he became a straight-up villain, everyone hated that. Do you make Nora into more of a delusional obsession of Freeze where he just wants someone he can love, as Snyder did? (everyone hated that as well.) Honestly, I'm willing to try anything anyone wants to do with Nora and Victor, because after his initial Heart of Ice introduction story I don't think there's much you can do with him afterward. He works as a character with a beginning and an ending (like in Batman Beyond) and that's it. His gimmick just isn't for a long-running medium like comics.
    Last edited by Batknight; 07-22-2019 at 06:39 PM.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Derek Metaltron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Nottingham, England
    Posts
    4,728

    Default

    The trouble is that you take away the tragedy with Nora and he’s just a emotionless brain box with an ice canon. Freeze is distinctive because you know what he does he perceives as best for her and saving her, the ultimate question of what we would do for those we love, even as we see that tragically Victor really understands love less and less every day. But under that exterior is the potential, and that’s what draws people to Victor and Nora’s story. Also the fact that his accident was tied to a corrupt businessman like Ferris Boyle rather than his own hubris and Bruce Wayne.

    Here though it’s more that they’re going to taint Nora by revealing ‘surprise she’s a bad guy now’, which is honestly much worse than her being unable to forgive him for what he has done (not that she’s his wife now anyway).

  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,821

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Metaltron View Post
    Honestly I think it would be much more interesting to have Freeze become an anti hero akin to Doctor Octopus with Superior Spider-Man with Nora revived rather than a villain Nora if you wanna change that dynamic radically
    I couldn't agree with you more. Villian Nora compromises one of the great tragic villains of comic book history (or at least Mr. Freeze has been so since the BTAS in the 1990s).
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    2,958

    Default

    He really should've been a hero by now. Much earlier than Ivy, since Freeze's main motivation, can be solved by Bruce Wayne's permanent funding.

    Freeze only needs to appear in one story arc that explains his situation, then Batman and Bruce Wayne solve it, so the next time he appears, he's an ally. Done.

  10. #10
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    402

    Default

    I agree with BatKnight, Mr.Freeze with the sympathetic Nora backstory only works in limited stories with a clear cut beginning and end. Honestly with the exception of DCAU and Arkham games, I have rarely see Mr.Freeze with the sympathetic origin done really well. In all honestly, it becomes very limiting after all because:

    1.) There can be so many evil deeds Mr.Freeze can do before the sympathy runs out, especially in the comics where he murders and does several world ending plots. The motivation works for so long even for a character like Batman, let alone the readers. For example, when Mr.Freeze first was given his BTAS origin by Paul Dini, who made him a man who still murders animals through freezing them before he met Nora, or Scott Snyder's New 52 Mr.Freeze.
    2.) Even if he does cure Nora, where does Mr.Freeze goes from there (TNBA ran into this problem which they admitted in behind the scenes work or Gotham who killed Nora which leads to Victor becoming Mr.Freeze), and then it becomes a matter running back into #1, how do you keep Mr.Freeze sympathetic when he does completely unsympathetic deeds?
    3.) It usually ends in tragedy than it does with a true happy ending( Batman & Robin and Arkham by my count)

    Then you have fans complain when they don't use Mr.Freeze's sympathetic origins or follow BTAS route of Mr.Freeze (The Batman even though they hinted Nora exists in some form, YJ, Brave and the Bold all used a more or less pre BTAS Mr.Freeze for example) or do feature Nora but in a twist (Gotham killing off Nora instead of keeping her which makes it easier to show Freeze as a villain but basically kept him as a glorified henchmen or Scott Snyder New 52), fans usually criticize it making it hard to have Mr.Freeze as a good villain to write for especially since DC won't make him an anti-hero or redeem him at this point.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,546

    Default

    Mr Freeze was a villain first and foremost
    Nora didn't come into the picture until much later and then by that point he had already killed a good chunk of gotham citizens
    Now he no longer wanted to freeze the world he just wanted to cure nora and kill anyone who got in the way of that.
    Sorry that is an evil selfish SOB

    He can have sympathetic motives but the actions and crimes he regularly commits are not in any way heroic

    Nora as a character is a blank slate with nothing being done with her. Turning her villain at least gives her something to do and not just exist as a stereotypical damsel object that motivates victor and destroys her own agency.

  12. #12
    Fantastic Member tbaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    348

    Default

    With out the Nora back story ( Which gets old very fast) Mr. Freeze just becomes another low rate villain with a cheesy gimmick. To me Mr. Freeze was a good one or two shot villain but should have never tried to work long term in the Batman History.
    Favorite teams. Avengers, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,537

    Default

    I thought "oh man, they're gonna try to do something with Nora again" when I first saw the solicits. And yeah, it's a tired approach that seems to happen every time there's a big event. Like, of course Lex Luthor offers Mister Freeze something in the middle of a big old line-wide crossover.

    But it's all about the execution. Lazara's execution wasn't just bad because it made Mister Freeze's motivations unspecial, it was also bad because it made Ra's al Ghul and his Lazarus Pits less special. The more Ra's gets involved with like ... petty Gotham criminals ... the more watered down he tends to be. And that includes not just his character motivations but also just his whole world of weird international assassins and alchemies.

    But I repeat it's all about the execution. Sometimes Tomasi has been able to pull off some wonky weird fun stuff. And I mean, if the two of them start going by Mister and Mrs. Freeze I can truly live with it. Madly in love supervillains who can't make love because her body heat would kill him? Straight up reminds me of Rogue over in X-Men. Only they're villainous!
    Retro315 no more. Anonymity is so 2005.
    retrowarbird.blogspot.com

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Gotham City
    Posts
    6,673

    Default

    Nora is part of Victor origin...

    After this she should return to her previous state..

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Smallville, KS
    Posts
    2,213

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    He really should've been a hero by now. Much earlier than Ivy, since Freeze's main motivation, can be solved by Bruce Wayne's permanent funding.

    Freeze only needs to appear in one story arc that explains his situation, then Batman and Bruce Wayne solve it, so the next time he appears, he's an ally. Done.
    I actually really like this idea.
    "Darkseid...always hated music..."

    Every post I make, it should be assumed by the reader that the following statement is attached: "It's all subjective. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you, and vice versa, and that's ok. You may have a different opinion on it, but this is mine. That's the wonderful thing about being a comics fan, it's all subjective."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •