When did Barry Allen become Wally West?

[phantom1592]

I think that was just Wally talking about his experience on his Earth. Nobody seems to remember when he was The Flash and took over for Barry.

I mean, he can fight Barry but I think he fits more as a Wally villain.

Frankly I don't really think of Axel as an 'anyone' villain. He seems like a guy out for the fame and profit of crime... and whoever stops him stops him.

[Dred]

Frankly I don't really think of Axel as an 'anyone' villain. He seems like a guy out for the fame and profit of crime... and whoever stops him stops him.

That's not the point though. You can say the same about any Rogue. They're all out for the score. The point is that pretending like his entire history with Wally is irrelevant like it's no big deal IS A BIG DEAL. Because if you did that with any Barry rogue it'd be seen as blasphemous. Barry already had a Trickster, why exactly did we need to rewrite Axel's entire history to make it so that he was originally a Barry villain instead of a Wally one? It's not like they couldn't have used James Jesse in every situation they used Axel in. I think the answer is glaringly obvious given, well, everything that's been talked about in this thread.

Like seriously, how many things can you name from Wally's run that are actually still, you know, tied to him now? Even Bart is going the way of Donna Troy to be fully associated with her teenage hero team than with his origin.

[Lee]

I would get this argument if this was 2012. It is halfway through 2019. Wally has been back for THREE YEARS. There is no excuse anymore. If Superman and Wonder Woman can fix it, and if Batman and GL can have avoided the problem the entire time, there's literally no excuse for these things to stand and, even worse, for them to continue like they have.

Telling me a reboot happened 10 years ago is not a solution or an mitigating factor to my argument.

I'm not offering solutions. I'm explaining that "DC Comics" isn't a monolithic entity and circumstances aren't set in stone.

The decision to make Pied Piper a former Rogue on friendly terms with The Flash (Barry) wasn't made to screw over Wally. It was made because the creative team didn't have access to Wally, but they did have access to Pied Piper, and they felt it was a good role for the character.

A creative team can make use of what's available to them, or leave them aside.

Why aren't we seeing more Wally stuff in the pages of The Flash? Because the creative team of The Flash only has limited access to Wally.

[Dred]

I'm not offering solutions. I'm explaining that "DC Comics" isn't a monolithic entity and circumstances aren't set in stone.

The decision to make Pied Piper a former Rogue on friendly terms with The Flash (Barry) wasn't made to screw over Wally. It was made because the creative team didn't have access to Wally, but they did have access to Pied Piper, and they felt it was a good role for the character.

A creative team can make use of what's available to them, or leave them aside.

Why aren't we seeing more Wally stuff in the pages of The Flash? Because the creative team of The Flash only has limited access to Wally.

Look, I get that the idea in the offices isn't always, "What can we do to screw over Wally?" though looking at how they're super proud of Heroes In Crisis and that what happened to Wally was entirely Didio's decision should clue you into that it's certainly sometimes exactly what they're trying to do.

My point is that they DO go well out of their way to rewrite everything from Wally's history to make it based around Barry. I get that Piper isn't as big a deal in Barry's comic as he was in Wally's. That's NOT the point. The point is that they took Hartley's entire redemption arc, something I'm very freaking fond of, and boiled it away into the most basic take they could: Pied Piper is The Flash's gay bud, and The Flash is now Barry, so he must be Barry's gay bud. So all of that bonding, understanding, and acceptance that happened between Hartley and Wally is no longer a part of EITHER character purely so that we could get 10 pages of Hartley being friendly with Barry/The Flash. We lost one of the best, most groundbreaking arcs a supporting minority character has ever been given purely to reattribute that checkmark into Barry's lore.

That's the problem! The fact that they do not care about any of those things that happened before Barry except to devolve it of many of its best points so they can attach it to Barry instead of Wally. That's why it's bad! That DC doesn't care, or deign to care, is also bad! Telling me "well lol that's just DC" isn't news to me. That this is how DC operates is the problem.

[Lee]

My point is that they DO go well out of their way to rewrite everything from Wally's history to make it based around Barry. I get that Piper isn't as big a deal in Barry's comic as he was in Wally's. That's NOT the point. The point is that they took Hartley's entire redemption arc, something I'm very freaking fond of, and boiled it away into the most basic take they could: Pied Piper is The Flash's gay bud, and The Flash is now Barry, so he must be Barry's gay bud. So all of that bonding, understanding, and acceptance that happened between Hartley and Wally is no longer a part of EITHER character purely so that we could get 10 pages of Hartley being friendly with Barry/The Flash. We lost one of the best arcs a supporting minority character has ever been given purely to reattribute that checkmark into Barry's lore.

What should the creative team have done instead?

That's the problem! The fact that they do not care about any of those things that happened before Barry except to devolve it of many of its best points so they can attach it to Barry instead of Wally. That's why it's bad!

Attaching it to Wally wasn't an option, because Wally was off limits.

[Dred]

What should the creative team have done instead?



Attaching it to Wally wasn't an option, because Wally was off limits.

Why is this about the creative team? I understand this is an editorial edict. But if that was the option then I'd much rather they didn't use Hartley until Wally was no longer off limits. Then use Hartley in Barry's comics as much as you want so long as you're not shitting on both Hartley and Wally. And this extends outwards. Again, this is not about saying Barry should NEVER EVER EVER be allowed to use things from Wally's tenure, it's purely about the rewriting of history because Wally was "off limits" (EVEN WHEN HE'S NOT OFF LIMITS which you seem to want to ignore).

But you keep trying to make this about the creative teams and I am not blaming them. I am blaming DC and its fucked up editorial. I feel like you're trying to cajole me into a gotcha moment where you go, "AHA, so you ARE saying that Barry should never be allowed to use X, Y, and Z!" But that is not the case.

If your observation here is that DC decided that Barry should appropriate everything there is to appropriate about Wally and the creative teams just had to go along with it then yes. You are right. That is the point of the thread. I'm not sure what point you're pushing towards, here.

[Lee]

Why is this about the creative team? I understand this is an editorial edict. But if that was the option then I'd much rather they didn't use Hartley until Wally was no longer off limits. Then use Hartley in Barry's comics as much as you want so long as you're not shitting on both Hartley and Wally. And this extends outwards.

But you keep trying to make this about the creative teams and I am not blaming them. I am blaming DC and its fucked up editorial.

You repeatedly complained that "they" kept on using elements from the Wally West Flash run in order to diminish Wally. But DC isn't a monolithic entity.

Senior editorial made Wally off-limits. But it's unlikely that senior editorial told the Flash creative teams that they MUST use Girder/Piper/Tar Pit, in order to diminish Wally. That's just the creative team using the tools at their disposal to make the best Flash comics they can.

As you said, the only other option was to not use those characters and concepts at all, on the off-chance that Wally might get a six issue mini-series 8 years later.

[Dred]

That mini series is not going to fix anything. Based on everything Lobdell's said it's about to be a big load of nothing, going nowhere, fixing little. It just accepts all the garbage.

Wally won't get a Superman Reborn. I'm acutely aware that this will continue to happen, and that Barry being Wally will just be the state of affairs until they're no longer making comics. It doesn't make it any less bullshit. And, for the record, it wouldn't be any less bullshit if the yellow boot was on the other foot. The question in this thread is asking when did Barry become Wally West, and the answer is it started in 2009 when Flash Rebirth took the stands and it's continuing to this day, in literally the current Flash arc, and it will not stop so long as there's more things to take from Wally's history and rewrite into Barry's.

And I'm sure the writers, current and future, who will only ever get a chance to write Barry in the main Flash book, would rather use those elements even if it means bastardizing them and excising Wally more and more rather than miss out on their chance to use characters and concepts they like. Damned if they do and damned if they don't, and most fans aren't insane like me so won't care. 95% of the people buying that comic don't even know any of the stuff in it originated with Wally, so it's a moot point to anyone who could give a **** about Wally. Not that many of us out there, sadly.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Hey, do you guys remember this green-eyed, red-haired clone of Barry Allen? XD



Ok, gone again.

[Lee]

The question in this thread is asking when did Barry become Wally West, and the answer is it started in 2009 when Flash Rebirth took the stands and it's continuing to this day, in literally the current Flash arc

If you truly believe that The Turtle having superpowers turns Barry into Wally, then sure.

[upgrayedd]

Hey, do you guys remember this green-eyed, red-haired clone of Barry Allen? XD



Ok, gone again.

LOL, greatest example of turning Barry into Wally, this was from the great Justice League 3000 series.

[Dred]

If you truly believe that The Turtle having superpowers turns Barry into Wally, then sure.

I get you're trying to be dismissive but yes, it is one in a list of dozens of things that removes Wally from any relevance to the franchise. Now Turtle, as he was in Johns' run, is that way completely to the exclusion of Wally. Hartley is a villain-turned-hero completely to the exclusion of Wally. The Speed Force was discovered, named, explored, and mastered completely to the exclusion of Wally. The Flash Family (conceptually) was now created completely to the exclusion of Wally. The list goes on and on and on. Like I said, the only thing I expect Barry not to take at this point is Linda. And even then only in the comics because THEY DID IT IN THE SHOW.

Hey, do you guys remember this green-eyed, red-haired clone of Barry Allen? XD



Ok, gone again.

Ah yes, the days of everyone going, "OH MY GOD GIFFEN AND DEMATTEIS ARE USING WALLY EVEN IF IT'S IN AN ALTERNATE FUTURE/REALITY THANK GOD"

Followed 3 months later by "lol no it's Barry. Wally never existed and Barry was the only Flash, lol"

Heartbreak follows in his slipstream.

[Lee]

I get you're trying to be dismissive but yes, it is one in a list of dozens of things that removes Wally from any relevance to the franchise. Now Turtle, as he was in Johns' run, is that way completely apropos of Wally. Hartley is a villain-turned-hero completely apropos of Wally. The Speed Force was discovered, named, explored, and mastered completely apropos of Wally. The Flash Family (conceptually) was now created completely apropos of Wally. The list goes on and on and on. Like I said, the only thing I expect Barry not to take at this point is Linda. And even then only in the comics because THEY DID IT IN THE SHOW.

You're misusing the word "apropos" and saying the opposite of what you intended.

As a fictional character, Barry can't "take" anything unless he "takes" it within the story. Within the story, Barry saw The Turtle committing crimes and causing harm with his super powers. He didn't "take" anything from Wally by choosing to fight The Turtle. The language we use is important, especially when it comes to identifying grievances and attributing culpability.

Ultimately, I don't think The Turtle retroactively having super-powers is something that will bother most fans of Wally West, or negatively impact future story potential for Wally West. I think dwelling on it can only give a poor impression of the fan base and distract from the bigger issues.

[married guy]

Jesus. Effing. Christ.

How can anyone even argue about that Barry has appropriated damn near everything associated with Wally West???!!!

It has been an editorial mandate from Dan Didio that Wally West was off limits. Numerous writers have already stated this fact.
Because of this, Barry was relaunched and everything readers had come to associate with the Flash over the last 20 years was tacked onto Barry Allen.

This REALLY pisses me off for a number of reasons, first, Barry DOESN'T need to be a Wally clone. It's a MAJOR disservice to a character with such a deep history.
Second, by doing this, it COMPLETELY negates Wally. (Which was of course, Didio's intention)

The sole reason we get anything Wally West related is because the fanbase won't lay down and cop it.

[Bruce Wayne]

Barry Allen is a boring character. DC has realized this.

So DC's genius strategy to make him sell is by turning him into the Flash that everyone loves.

It's dumb but simple.