When did Barry Allen become Wally West?

[KC]

If you've got a toy in your toybox that you and your brother can both use, but your brother then beats you up, takes the toy, writes his name on it, and never lets you play with again, is that sharing?

It is more like your brother taking the toy and playing with it in a different way than you. And another brother could come along and play with it another way, but ultimately it is a family toy-box and that is what will happen.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Let's assume for a moment Wally is never again a Flash akin to pre-Didio. I think it's fair to expect they don't push Wally's relationships or personality to Barry, or whoever becomes the Flash down the line. But all the other great concepts, villains and ideas from that era fall under fair use. Agree or disagree?

Agreed, it`s what i've been saying all along.

[Wakeneuron]

Wally never had an outgoing personality. I think that you're confusing Wally with Bart. The way Snyder wrote Barry in Justice League is an outlier. He's usually not written that way. Compared to the way Barry was written in the 80s with now, yes I would say that he's more outgoing but he's not being written like Wally because Wally is not very outgoing. In the New Teen Titans Wally was some what aloof and didn't want to be bothered. His relationship with the other Titans suffered when he realized that Raven was making him fall in love with her. And it didn't really fully recovered until way in his solo series after Nightwing and Starfire guest starred after getting married (almost). And then when Geoff Johns came along he became good friends with Cyborg. But still Wally has never been very outgoing. That was Bart.

[Lee]

If characters introduced in The Flash from 1987-2008 were made off-limits to writers of The Flash, then where else should they appear?

[Dred]

It is more like your brother taking the toy and playing with it in a different way than you. And another brother could come along and play with it another way, but ultimately it is a family toy-box and that is what will happen.

Boy that's a whole load of BS. No one's getting the toys but Barry. They've changed the whole toy box to bar Wally's claim to any of it. I know you couldn't care less so long as Barry gets the toys, but things were much more respectful when Wally was in the spotlight. Again, I know you don't care but please stop trying to obfuscate the entire point being made. It's disingenuous.

[Dred]

If characters introduced in The Flash from 1987-2008 were made off-limits to writers of The Flash, then where else should they appear?

This is a strawman. It's not about being off limits. It's about changing all of these characters so as to completely remove Wally from their history and then stapling that history onto Barry. Can you see the distinction?

[KC]

Boy that's a whole load of BS. No one's getting the toys but Barry. They've changed the whole toy box to bar Wally's claim to any of it. I know you couldn't care less so long as Barry gets the toys, but things were much more respectful when Wally was in the spotlight. Again, I know you don't care but please stop trying to obfuscate the entire point being made. It's disingenuous.

It's not "BS", it's true. I am not trying to "obfuscate the entire point being made". Character and concepts added to the DC Universe are going to be used by more than just who they were made for. That is a fact. And that includes character and concepts made for Wally. Changing and retconning things is a part of this as it all depends on how writers want to use these things.

[Dred]

Except the **** that happens for Barry did not happen with Wally. This is exactly what I mean. You draw some nonsense false equivalence, acting like this has always been the case and its totally normal. Except it isn't and this is the only place it happens, with all of Wally's history, stories, and narrative relevance being expressly removed to be given to Barry. I said this at the beginning, when Wally became The Flash they DID NOT retcon The Rogues' histories to make it so they never knew or battled Barry. Because that'd be super fucking disrespectful. But when they do it to Wally you say it's par for the damn course. That's the BS you're spouting. If the shoe was on the other foot you'd be livid.

[Lee]

This is a strawman. It's not about being off limits. It's about changing all of these characters so as to completely remove Wally from their history and then stapling that history onto Barry. Can you see the distinction?

The DC Universe was rebooted and Wally was off-limits. The only other option was the not use the characters at all, in any capacity.

[KC]

Except the **** that happens for Barry did not happen with Wally. This is exactly what I mean. You draw some nonsense false equivalence, acting like this has always been the case and its totally normal. Except it isn't and this is the only place it happens, with all of Wally's history, stories, and narrative relevance being expressly removed to be given to Barry. I said this at the beginning, when Wally became The Flash they DID NOT retcon The Rogues' histories to make it so they never knew or battled Barry. Because that'd be super fucking disrespectful. But when they do it to Wally you say it's par for the damn course. That's the BS you're spouting. If the shoe was on the other foot you'd be livid.

It does always happen. Not always to the extreme level of some of the things that happened to Wally. But characters and concepts are used by other writers and these characters and concepts are changed and expanded upon. This happens and it is all a part of the shared universe.

We are not talking about how disrespectful it can be, Just that it does happen.

[Dred]

The DC Universe was rebooted and Wally was off-limits. The only other option was the not use the characters at all, in any capacity.

Again, a nonsense excuse. The universe was rebooted when Wally became The Flash and the same thing didn't follow. Also, this started BEFORE the reboot. And it's still going on after Wally came back! The reason is beyond all of that.

[KC]

Again, a nonsense excuse. The universe was rebooted when Wally became The Flash and the same thing didn't follow. Also, this started BEFORE the reboot. And it's still going on after Wally came back! The reason is beyond all of that.

The Universe was not rebooted to the extent it was for the New-52. They were not going to stop using the Speed Force just because Wally was not there.

[The Darknight Detective]

Guys, please keep your conversations civil.

[Dred]

The Universe was not rebooted to the extent it was for the New-52. They were not going to stop using the Speed Force just because Wally was not there.

I would appreciate it if you stopped using strawmen. I have made it abundantly clear that I am not saying Barry should be disallowed from using the speed force. I am saying that it and every aspect of Wally's tenure shouldn't be annihilated in the process of using it.

And no, the New 52 wasn't necessarily a harder reboot than COIE. They gladly kept plenty of elements that spit in the face of a reboot. They chose not to with Flash, which continued the ripping of Wallys qualities and stapling onto Barry.

[KC]

I would appreciate it if you stopped using strawmen. I have made it abundantly clear that I am not saying Barry should be disallowed from using the speed force. I am saying that it and every aspect of Wally's tenure shouldn't be annihilated in the process of using it.

And no, the New 52 wasn't necessarily a harder reboot than COIE. They gladly kept plenty of elements that spit in the face of a reboot. They chose not to with Flash, which continued the ripping of Wallys qualities and stapling onto Barry.

That wasn't a strawman, it was an example.

It came with a reboot and/or changes for every franchise. Unlike COIE where characters like Wally kept most of their continuity. The only characters who got that in the New 52 were some Green Lantern characters and some Batman characters. Wally was not the only character that no longer existed. DC did not have to (and didn't) keep things from being used just because they were Wally's first.