When did Barry Allen become Wally West?

[BohemiaDrinker]

I'd actually say Tim Drake may be getting close to that list. Between Red Hood and Damian and Reboots, he's had just about everything that was cool about Tim taken away, switched, shifted and left with little more than an empty shell that seems to just take up space. Everything from his role as partner, to his modernized costume have been usurped and claimed by retcons to Dick and Jason.

Oh, I agree with this.

Ironically, Robins all kept their personalities even though lots of elements became interchangeable among them. Even the YJ cartoon, which is usually the golden standard for "how to do things" these days, is guilty of this.

[Dred]

Oh, I agree with this.

Ironically, Robins all kept their personalities even though lots of elements became interchangeable among them. Even the YJ cartoon, which is usually the golden standard for "how to do things" these days, is guilty of this.

Well, YJ only has had two Robins at all and Tim's been background dressing more than anything.

[KC]

You literally never addressed any point. You said one thing, assumed that that one generalized statements encompasses all situations without actually even explaining how or why it would, and then started saying "I'm right" over and over again. This is a recurring theme.

I’m sure I have. Don’t you have anything better to do than argue with somebody who clearly disagrees with you and has given up trying to argue or reason with you?


I would recommend watching paint dry on a wall. You and the wall might have things in common.

[Dred]

I’m sure I have. Don’t you have anything better to do than argue with somebody who clearly disagrees with you and has given up trying to reason with you?


I would recommend watching paint dry on a wall. You and the wall might have thing in common.

I'm not sure if that was some limp wristed attempt to throw a burn out but I guess it's for the better there was little to it. I argue because you argue back. You are free to stop responding to me. But if you insist on lying about how this conversation went and what you did or didn't do to try to puff your chest a bit then I'm not just going to go "well jee I guess so." I'll continue to call the spade a spade. Be as desperate to end the conversation on your own terms as you want. Everytime you say "Let's agree to disagree" you always precede the statement with some egregious claim to try to get some less-than-sly attempt at the final verdict on the matter.

It seems like if I call your bluff enough it just goes back to trying to talk about what's wrong with me. Hey man, how about what's wrong with both of us?

[KC]

I'm not sure if that was some limp wristed attempt to throw a burn out but I guess it's for the better there was little to it. I argue because you argue back. You are free to stop responding to me. But if you insist on lying about how this conversation went and what you did or didn't do to try to puff your chest a bit then I'm not just going to go "well jee I guess so." I'll continue to call the spade a spade. Be as desperate to end the conversation on your own terms as you want. Everytime you say "Let's agree to disagree" you always precede the statement with some egregious claim to try to get some less-than-sly attempt at the final verdict on the matter.

It seems like if I call your bluff enough it just goes back to trying to talk about what's wrong with me. Hey man, how about what's wrong with both of us?

It was just a joke. I stopped arguing a while ago. I obviously disagree with everything you just said. We both probably want to get the last word on the matter. So if you reply, just assume that I would reply to you with “I disagree. Let’s agree to disagree” because I am done actually replying.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Relevant to the thread? Wally was first, to the left, then Barry, to the right. Same writer.



Gone again. Enjoy the circle-race! o/

[BohemiaDrinker]

Well, YJ only has had two Robins at all and Tim's been background dressing more than anything.

They did make Dick "hacker extraordinaire" in the first season, though.

[Dred]

Relevant to the thread? Wally was first, to the left, then Barry, to the right. Same writer.



Gone again. Enjoy the circle-race! o/

Generally speaking, Barry adopts Wally's personality in group situations (The most egregious of this obviously being Johns and Snyder), while he adopts Wally's history, accomplishments, endeavors and experiences in his solo comics. And sometimes his personality in solo comics, obviously. Venditti tried doing the snarky, in his own head style character which makes some sense because that's what people think of as the "default" speedster personality that Wally made the default and Venditti plainly admitted to never having read the Flash and knowing nothing about the character.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Venditti plainly admitted to never having read the Flash and knowing nothing about the character.

Well, no one who uderstood anything about the Flash would accept carrying on the NuWally mandate, probably. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[phantom1592]

Tim's kind of been in a directionless position but I don't think any of the other Robins really took his schtick. Being the smartest detective and most level headed of the batfam is still kind of his thing and I don't think Damian or Jason took that out from under him. And, heck, over time they pushed Tim more towards falling into line with the rest of the batfam ala parent trauma and whatnot. Jason and Damian took all the spotlight, which can be said for a lot more characters, but I kind of pointed out Cassie and Steph specifically because a relatively big part of their characters -- Cassie's origins and driving narration and Steph's age and attitude -- were completely snatched away by their predecessors.

Heck, Damian started out as Dick's partner and he basically never shows up with Bruce for a long time. No one does since Snyder's run, really.

Damian LITERALLY took his place as Robin... despite the fact that he never wanted to become his 'own thing'. Robin was never seen as an identity that you aged out of or graduated from till Damian came along.

Tim lost claim to the modernized costume. Now Dick wears it in all the cartoons (actually a problem since BTAS)

Jason being back stole his motivation. Both as being more careful and to fill the gap that Jason left are gone now...

Heck, new52 stole his origin, background, friends/family and took away his time AS an official Robin...

Being a good detective doesn't really mean much in the BatFam… they're ALL skilled with computers and trained by Batman... when he's NOT there, they get along just fine. Since Damian and New 52, he's been voted most likely die and not be missed quite a bit.

Hopefully Bendis can redeem him a bit with YJ, but it's going to take some work.

It's a damn shame too, because in the late 1980s/early 1990s, Tim saved the Robin character from obsolescence. In the wake of Jason's death, many fans were wondering if there was still a place for Robin in the modern Batman mythos. Tim proved that there was.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Absolutely. I love Grayson as the first Robin... I even like the original costume with the right artist... but Tim was MY Robin when I started collecting. He was the best written character at DC (in my opinon) for a LONG time. Home life, friends, school, super heroes, Batman... it touched on all of them.

Now... dust in the wind...

Well, YJ only has had two Robins at all and Tim's been background dressing more than anything.

I find it telling that whenever they come up with a new Teen Titans cartoon... it takes a little while to tell if it's supposed to even BE Tim or Dick. Usually takes him revealing his identity or a future jump to see him as nightwing to REEALLY be sure... Always has the black/yellow cape and a 90's edge to him that was Tim's claim to fame.

[Dred]

Yeah, I'll give you the costume. That was definitely re-attributed. Same thing happened with Wally -- different variation of the original that the predecessor retroactively gets. It's just Barry also took everything else, too.

[Buried Alien]

Relevant to the thread? Wally was first, to the left, then Barry, to the right. Same writer.



Gone again. Enjoy the circle-race! o/

Barry really shouldn't have much of a relationship with Vic, and if they have one, it'd be a bit distant and more elder/youth oriented. Pre-FLASHPOINT, Barry and Vic hardly knew each other. Vic was in Wally's age group, and Barry knew that Vic was one of Wally's buddies on the New Teen Titans, and Vic knew that Barry was Wally's mentor and uncle, and that was pretty much it. They had a nodding acquaintance, like how you would know your buddy's dad (or in this case, uncle). They'd be friendly, but not *that* friendly. Barry and Vic are about a half generation apart (at least, if not a full generation), and wouldn't have much common ground. Barry's friends are Hal, Ralph, Ollie, etc. Vic is his nephew's buddy.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[BohemiaDrinker]

Barry really shouldn't have much of a relationship with Vic, and if they have one, it'd be a bit distant and more elder/youth oriented. Pre-FLASHPOINT, Barry and Vic hardly knew each other. Vic was in Wally's age group, and Barry knew that Vic was one of Wally's buddies on the New Teen Titans, and Vic knew that Barry was Wally's mentor and uncle, and that was pretty much it. They had a nodding acquaintance, like how you would know your buddy's dad (or in this case, uncle). They'd be friendly, but not *that* friendly. Barry and Vic are about a half generation apart (at least, if not a full generation), and wouldn't have much common ground. Barry's friends are Hal, Ralph, Ollie, etc. Vic is his nephew's buddy.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

In a more pre/post-Crisis, classic set-up, I would agree.

On the New 52 configuration, I think that that friendship makes some sense, though. What called my attention here is not that they're friends, is the attempt at at replicating the same exact dynamic, essentially re-writing the same scene.

[phantom1592]

Yeah, I'll give you the costume. That was definitely re-attributed. Same thing happened with Wally -- different variation of the original that the predecessor retroactively gets. It's just Barry also took everything else, too.

Yeah, that bugs me a lot too. Honestly I love Barry's costume a 100% more than Wally's. Wally always strikes me as someone taking a classic car out and adding spinners and flames and pinstripes... to make it COOLER!! Which was fine in the 90's and separated into the younger more fun generation... but Man, I love seeing Barry's classic costume with the straight belt... but then suddenly he's all pinstriped up too...

Ughhh…

[Buried Alien]

Yeah, that bugs me a lot too. Honestly I love Barry's costume a 100% more than Wally's. Wally always strikes me as someone taking a classic car out and adding spinners and flames and pinstripes... to make it COOLER!! Which was fine in the 90's and separated into the younger more fun generation... but Man, I love seeing Barry's classic costume with the straight belt... but then suddenly he's all pinstriped up too...

Ughhh…

I always thought this worked best, even though "Barry" was Eobard Thawne in disguise.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)