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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    It is what it is, though. If someone replaces Barry as the dominant Flash 30 or 40 years from now, he or she will get all of the goodies. No amount of complaining will change that fact, either.
    Doesn't change the historicity of Characters.As people have said, they didn't do that before now they do. Barry allen wasn't replaced.he was succeeded. There is a difference . Golden age superman will always be "champion of the oppressed". Adam west batman will always be the goofy. Jay garrick will always be the original flash. Wally west stint will always be one of the best flash runs ever.oh! I am not complaining. I just don't like the pretence that wally west replacement was fair one or clean One . It is as you said a replacement and not barry sharing anything.

  2. #152
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    With you on this.(My list includes Barry making out with Linda Park. Jesus.)

    But given that Wally was taken off the board, and DC brought back Barry, the house, and all its contents, transfer to it's new owner. It kinda sucks - as fans we want the characters to stand, their history intact.
    Well, that's the complaint. Answer this: post-Crisis, was Wally retconned into a Justice League founder? Did he become the savior of the universe in COIE, or the best forensic scientist at the KCPD? Were Barry's friendships and relationships transferred to him?

    There were, IMHO, 2 moves that were sortt of disrespectful to Barry's history and I will concede: Wally being the first Flash to ever fight Thawne, and Wally being the only one capable of unaided time-travel. Neither of those, though, really intruded in Barry's character.

    Now it's another thing.

    Absolutely. But then you'd have two lead Flashes, which I don't think makes sense long term. It's all personal preference, but I do think the IP is strongest with exactly one primary Flash, regardless of whether that's Barry or Wally.
    Well, the way they did it is not the most advantageous either, because it's been ten years and here we are. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 07-31-2019 at 12:16 PM.
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  3. #153
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    I wonder ho much different this conversation would be if Didio had held off on the New 52 or just assigned Johns to actually carry out his Flash Family plan.
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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    It is shared because they are a part of the universe, a part of the toy-box, and they are being used for Barry.
    You must not understand the basic concept of sharing if that is the word you use. Barry shares with Wally about as much as he does with Sgt. Rock.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I wonder ho much different this conversation would be if Didio had held off on the New 52 or just assigned Johns to actually carry out his Flash Family plan.
    Very differently, I'd imagine. As soon as DC was exploding with media, a Flash Family depiction including both would most likely be the alternative to what we got.

    Imagine a multi-season Barry & Wally centered show in which we see Wally age in real time and assume the mantle? Amazing

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I was speaking historicaly. As in real world. The honor should be jay garrick's as the real first flash without whom the flash brand wouldn't exist. The stupid retcon from geoff johns doesn't change the fact that barry wasn't the first or the original . No amount of "space-time" nonsense will make him deserve the creator status or original status .
    No, it isn't. Then jay should say it as well. Jay doesn't so no not part of the toy box. Wally's personal tagline. And tell me something if everything is stripped from wally and given to barry because of toybox. How is it sharing?
    Hate to break it to you. But, Sharing goes both ways.as in, Not just in favor of barry like it is happening now. Shared universe doesn’t mean co-opt personality, taglines, concepts of one character and giving to another without mentioning the former.
    The real-world reason for who created it does not matter. It is a part of the universe and DC used it.

    It does not matter that Jay does not say it. Jay could say it when he is in a situation where he is the fastest man alive. It is a part of the toy-box because it is something that was added to the DC universe and it is something that anyone in the DC universe can say. It does go both ways, DC can take anything from Barry and give it to Wally or another character or use it for Wally or another character.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    You must not understand the basic concept of sharing if that is the word you use. Barry shares with Wally about as much as he does with Sgt. Rock.
    It is sharing because anyone in the DC could use stuff created for Wally.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I wonder ho much different this conversation would be if Didio had held off on the New 52 or just assigned Johns to actually carry out his Flash Family plan.
    I doubt Didio had any intention of letting Johns go through with his plans. Barbara as Batgirl and only Barry as Flash are his idea of a status quo. Bucellato and Manapul have talked how they had plans for introducing Wally that apparently Didio stood in the way of. So he seems to have a major axe to grind with Wally and preventing him from being reintroduced to DC. And when Johns did it, Didio did his best to sabotage the character. The situation is just nuts where there is no impartiality and it's all driven by his personal feelings as a fan. The same with Batgirl.

  9. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    It is sharing because anyone in the DC could use stuff created for Wally.
    alright,then.would you be alright if dc decided to make kite man main "the flash" and give iris west as love interest,make him the creator of speed forcegive him the ring costume and mentor of kid flash..etc? Everything barry did in continuity will be given to kite man including his nerdy personality.if you call that sharing then i will concur that your logic is sound.And just because something can be done.Doesn't make it good decision.

  10. #160
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    alright,then.would you be alright if dc decided to make kite man main "the flash" and give iris west as love interest,make him the creator of speed forcegive him the ring costume and mentor of kid flash..etc? Everything barry did in continuity will be given to kite man including his nerdy personality.if you call that sharing then i will concur that your logic is sound.And just because something can be done.Doesn't make it good decision.
    I'm pretty sure there's a difference between Kite Man and a character who wouldn't have spawned Wally in the first place had he failed back in the '50s.

    If Bruce Wayne (more popular than both Barry and Wally combined) were replaced as Batman for good, do you think DC would mothball all of the other stuff connected to him that fans find popular? Of course not. The new Bats would acquire them whether I thought it was a good idea or not (FWIW, as long as the stories were good, I really wouldn't care).
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  11. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    I'm pretty sure there's a difference between Kite Man and a character who wouldn't have spawned Wally in the first place had he failed back in the '50s.

    If Bruce Wayne (more popular than both Barry and Wally combined) were replaced as Batman for good, do you think DC would mothball all of the other stuff connected to him that fans find popular? Of course not. The new Bats would acquire them whether I thought it was a good idea or not (FWIW, as long as the stories were good, I really wouldn't care).
    what is the difference?he was the flash before,sure.but how is that relevant? here,question is of stealing history,personality,traits of character.it wouldn't matter if it was done by writers to give the mentor of the character.My father can't be "me",just because someone gave him my job.A job he once had.kite man can't be barry allen,only "the flash".just like that barry allen can't be wally west.just like how kyle rayner the cartoonist ain't hal jordan the pilot.
    dc used to have system of succession(legacy) not replacement.New batman will be getting stuff.but he wouldn't replace bruce wayne.Did terry replace bruce?no,he succeeded him.did dick replace bruce when he became batman?no.dick didn't suddenly have a thing with talia.they didn't make damian dick's son just because dick was batman.

  12. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    what is the difference?he was the flash before,sure.but how is that relevant? here,question is of stealing history,personality,traits of character.it wouldn't matter if it was done by writers to give the mentor of the character.My father can't be "me",just because someone gave him my job.A job he once had.kite man can't be barry allen,only "the flash".just like that barry allen can't be wally west.just like how kyle rayner the cartoonist ain't hal jordan the pilot.
    dc used to have system of succession(legacy) not replacement.New batman will be getting stuff.but he wouldn't replace bruce wayne.Did terry replace bruce?no,he succeeded him.did dick replace bruce when he became batman?no.dick didn't suddenly have a thing with talia.they didn't make damian dick's son just because dick was batman.
    Barry's use of the speedforce or villains that were introduced during his absence isn't apeing Wally's personality though. Barry is now the main character of the franchise and it makes sense to modernize him and try to make him more relatable to my generation. He's still written differently enough in the main book.

    I wish DC would treat Wally better but saying the problem is the main Flash book using elements that have been introduced since 1986 to tell Barry stories seems like a bit much to me. It would actually be nice if they used more. I miss Morillo and Chyre and it would be nice to not have to wait until DC decides to tell Wally stories to see them again.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    It is sharing because anyone in the DC could use stuff created for Wally.
    If you've got a toy in your toybox that you and your brother can both use, but your brother then beats you up, takes the toy, writes his name on it, and never lets you play with again, is that sharing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper View Post
    Barry's use of the speedforce or villains that were introduced during his absence isn't apeing Wally's personality though. Barry is now the main character of the franchise and it makes sense to modernize him and try to make him more relatable to my generation. He's still written differently enough in the main book.

    I wish DC would treat Wally better but saying the problem is the main Flash book using elements that have been introduced since 1986 to tell Barry stories seems like a bit much to me. It would actually be nice if they used more. I miss Morillo and Chyre and it would be nice to not have to wait until DC decides to tell Wally stories to see them again.
    It's not that he's using elements. It's not a big deal that Barry fights Turtle with his new powers or Axel Walker on its own.

    The problem is that Barry gets all of this stuff and none of its connection to Wally's time as The Flash is acknowledge, respected, or given a second thought. The universe, characters, and concepts intrinsic to The Flash were rewritten so that every unique thing Wally introduced is now attributed to Barry so as to make Barry more special and central to The Flash and Wally less so. Which sucks because basically everything that was developed with Wally is all Barry uses besides...like...Scudder and Glider.
    Last edited by Dred; 08-01-2019 at 08:07 AM.

  14. #164
    Fantastic Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Well, that's the complaint. Answer this: post-Crisis, was Wally retconned into a Justice League founder? Did he become the savior of the universe in COIE, or the best forensic scientist at the KCPD? Were Barry's friendships and relationships transferred to him?
    No. But the marketable elements transferred - the costume, the villains, and eventually Barry's DCU standing - racing Superman, the League, teaming up with Green Lantern, etc.

    But those are all things that make it the Flash, so it's appropriate.

    Perhaps a better example of what you're describing is late 1990s Green Lantern. When Hal Jordan was off limits, DC forced Bruce Timm and Paul Dini to use Kyle Rayner on Superman TAS. But they used a lot from Hal to establish their Kyle- his origin, costume, villain, etc.

    And when Timm created Justice League, he used Hal elements to establish John Stewart as a primary character. And it worked. This is just what happens when characters are retired or put away from use.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    There were, IMHO, 2 moves that were sortt of disrespectful to Barry's history and I will concede: Wally being the first Flash to ever fight Thawne, and Wally being the only one capable of unaided time-travel. Neither of those, though, really intruded in Barry's character.
    Fair enough, but I never thought twice about either of those things. Waid was, to use his own term, very respectful to what came before him.

    Let's assume for a moment Wally is never again a Flash akin to pre-Didio. I think it's fair to expect they don't push Wally's relationships or personality to Barry, or whoever becomes the Flash down the line. But all the other great concepts, villains and ideas from that era fall under fair use. Agree or disagree?

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    alright,then.would you be alright if dc decided to make kite man main "the flash" and give iris west as love interest,make him the creator of speed forcegive him the ring costume and mentor of kid flash..etc? Everything barry did in continuity will be given to kite man including his nerdy personality.if you call that sharing then i will concur that your logic is sound.And just because something can be done.Doesn't make it good decision.
    It never got that extreme for Barry and Wally, but yes.

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