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  1. #181
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    We are running in circles.



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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    That wasn't a strawman, it was an example.

    It came with a reboot and/or changes for every franchise. Unlike COIE where characters like Wally kept most of their continuity. The only characters who got that in the New 52 were some Green Lantern characters and some Batman characters. Wally was not the only character that no longer existed. DC did not have to (and didn't) keep things from being used just because they were Wally's first.
    An example of an argument that I didn't make is what a strawman is. So yes, it is an example, and it is still a strawman.

    Do you know what else is a bad arguement? Saying "someone else had it happen, too!" Yeah, other characters have been screwed over by DC, but only really Cassie Sandsmark and Steph Brown have a situation even remotely similar to Wally, and even then it's much more minor ripoffs.

    The reboot argument is still super weak because A) it started before the reboot B) it has continued well past Wally's return and C) the reboot is a crappy excuse inherently because DC chose plenty of stuff to keep and the entire reboot was half assed with the starting point 5 years into their careers, so not even a real damn reboot.

  3. #183
    Amazing Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    An example of an argument that I didn't make is what a strawman is. So yes, it is an example, and it is still a strawman.

    Do you know what else is a bad arguement? Saying "someone else had it happen, too!" Yeah, other characters have been screwed over by DC, but only really Cassie Sandsmark and Steph Brown have a situation even remotely similar to Wally, and even then it's much more minor ripoffs.

    The reboot argument is still super weak because A) it started before the reboot B) it has continued well past Wally's return and C) the reboot is a crappy excuse inherently because DC chose plenty of stuff to keep and the entire reboot was half assed with the starting point 5 years into their careers, so not even a real damn reboot.
    It wasn't a "bad argument" it was to show that plenty of characters were changed, made non-existent or rebooted in the reboot.

    It continued after Wally came back because at that point, the changes were already made and they were still using the changes made for Barry. They chose to keep some stuff but they also got rid of and changed a lot of stuff, and it was a lot more than they kept. That included most of the characters that were sidekicks. Which is unlike what happened after COIE where all the sidekicks were still around and some of the events of COIE (like Barry's death) still happened in some capacity.


    It was clearly a reboot as it wiped and changed most of the previous continuity. And despite it being 5 years in (which really is not that long of a time frame) most characters were still starting out, which was different from before the New 52.

    I agree with Buried Alien. We are running round in circles. Some of the stuff originally attributed to Wally was shared with Barry. I think that is a normal thing to happen with a shared universe and you don't. Ultimately, neither of us are going to change our opinions on this. I can keep making the same points over and over again knowing that I am right and you can probably do the same. But doing this is getting a bit boring now
    Last edited by KC; 08-01-2019 at 05:26 PM.
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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    And no, the New 52 wasn't necessarily a harder reboot than COIE. They gladly kept plenty of elements that spit in the face of a reboot. They chose not to with Flash, which continued the ripping of Wallys qualities and stapling onto Barry.
    The "they" who decided to reboot Flash continuity and make Wally off-limits aren't the same "they" who decided to use Girder in a story. The former is senior editorial deciding which tools are available, the latter is the creative team choosing to use one of the tools made available to them.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    It wasn't a "bad argument" it was to show that plenty of characters were changed, made non-existent or rebooted in the reboot.

    It continued after Wally came back because at that point, the changes were already made and they were still using the changes made for Barry. They chose to keep some stuff but they also got rid of and changed a lot of stuff, and it was a lot more than they kept. That included most of the characters that were sidekicks. Which is unlike what happened after COIE where all the sidekicks were still around and some of the events of COIE (like Barry's death) still happened in some capacity.


    It was clearly a reboot as it wiped and changed most of the previous continuity. And despite it being 5 years in (which really is not that long of a time frame) most characters were still starting out, which was different from before the New 52.

    I agree with Buried Alien. We are running round in circles. Some of the stuff originally attributed to Wally was shared with Barry. I think that is a normal thing to happen with a shared universe and you don't. Ultimately, neither of us are going to change our opinions on this. I can keep making the same points over and over again knowing that I am right and you can probably do the same. But doing this is getting a bit boring now
    What do you mean "the changes were already made" ? THAT'S NOT AN ARGUMENT. This is comics! Tell that to Superman and Wonder Woman who, after Wally came back, had giant universal alterations to their entire history to reciprocate the return of their own history. But Wally doesn't get that. Wally gets Heroes in Crisis. And WHY does Wally get Heroes in Crisis? Because every single DC mouth piece has talked about how Wally is too much like Barry and he serves no purpose and that they have to utterly, devastatingly change him because he has no place in the universe anymore because THEY. GAVE. EVERYTHING. TO. BARRY. The reason Wally is "too much" like Barry is not because they were similar characters for all these years, but because they've gone well out of their way to take as much of Wally as they can consciously think of it give it to Barry which, go figures, makes them really damn similar!

    That's why it's not shared. It's so not shared that the only thing they can think of to do for Wally is throw him in the wood chipper and start over from a ruined wreck.

    It's not "some" of the stuff. Please stop downplaying it. It's nearly everything! We're Barry kissing Linda in the comics away from there being abso-fucking-lutely nothing left. Wally, a character with one of the richest history in DC, has no history anymore! The only thing they didn't give to Barry was his Kid Flash stuff, which shows you exactly what is thought of Wally. 1987 and onwards Wally was all stripped from Wally and attached to Barry, in some things completely literally and in others narrative and symbolic things of importance.

    I know you're not going to change your opinion, I just wish you'd stop feeding me undercooked, disingenuous arguments to justify it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    The "they" who decided to reboot Flash continuity and make Wally off-limits aren't the same "they" who decided to use Girder in a story. The former is senior editorial deciding which tools are available, the latter is the creative team choosing to use one of the tools made available to them.
    I. do. not. care. if. they. use. the. same. characters.

    I do not know how many times you want me to repeat this. My gripe is not that Girder showed up at all in Barry's comics. I've stated this, unequivocally, four times now. Please stop making me repeat it. The reason I bring up characters like Axel Walker or, in your example, Girder, is not that I'm aghast that they appear in a Barry comic. That's cool enough for me. It's that Barry is using elements of Wally's history without using Wally's history, which is the exact opposite of how it worked for Wally when he would use characters and history from Barry's time. And that's the point. They want all the value and development and interesting characters and interesting concepts from Wally's run because they clearly realize it's integral to The Flash and amazing to boot, but they want all that integral lore and history to be for Barry instead of Wally. So they rewrite all this history, rewrite all these characters, rewrite all these concepts so that none of them apply to Wally anymore and they all apply to Barry.

    That is the gripe. That is the premise of this thread -- Barry becoming Wally, and NOT just in personality. And it's just true. It's what they've done. All these villains couldn't give a shit about or know anything about Wally. The entire Flash franchise, by design, was recreated such as to make Wally ancillary and unimportant. Imagine, just freaking imagine, if they did that with Barry. How much all the people arguing against me would flip their lids.
    Last edited by Dred; 08-01-2019 at 07:07 PM.

  6. #186
    Amazing Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    What do you mean "the changes were already made" ? THAT'S NOT AN ARGUMENT. This is comics! Tell that to Superman and Wonder Woman who, after Wally came back, had giant universal alterations to their entire history to reciprocate the return of their own history. But Wally doesn't get that. Wally gets Heroes in Crisis. And WHY does Wally get Heroes in Crisis? Because every single DC mouth piece has talked about how Wally is too much like Barry and he serves no purpose and that they have to utterly, devastatingly change him because he has no place in the universe anymore because THEY. GAVE. EVERYTHING. TO. BARRY. The reason Wally is "too much" like Barry is not because they were similar characters for all these years, but because they've gone well out of their way to take as much of Wally as they can consciously think of it give it to Barry which, go figures, makes them really damn similar!

    That's why it's not shared. It's so not shared that the only thing they can think of to do for Wally is throw him in the wood chipper and start over from a ruined wreck.

    It's not "some" of the stuff. Please stop downplaying it. It's nearly everything! We're Barry kissing Linda in the comics away from there being abso-fucking-lutely nothing left. Wally, a character with one of the richest history in DC, has no history anymore! The only thing they didn't give to Barry was his Kid Flash stuff, which shows you exactly what is thought of Wally. 1987 and onwards Wally was all stripped from Wally and attached to Barry, in some things completely literally and in others narrative and symbolic things of importance.

    I know you're not going to change your opinion, I just wish you'd stop feeding me undercooked, disingenuous arguments to justify it.

    Your samey (and frankly overemotional) responses are boring. We are getting nowhere and no matter what I say, you are going to dismiss it as "undercooked" or "disingenuous" while still arguing like I am saying something that you have to respond to. As I said, I know I am right and everything I have said makes me know that more and you probably think the same, So I am just going to agree to disagree.
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    Your samey (and frankly overemotional) responses are boring. We are getting nowhere and no matter what I say, you are going to dismiss it as "undercooked" or "disingenuous" while still arguing like I am saying something that you have to respond to. As I said, I know I am right and everything I have said makes me know that more and you probably think the same, So I am just going to agree to disagree.
    You've been proven wrong, many times before, sometimes completely demonstrably so, and it never errs you in this. The truth rarely matters to you. Popping into an argument, spouting vague nothings, and then going "I AM OF COURSE RIGHT" after being proven wrong is about what I should expect, though.

    Look, man, you came to this thread knowing exactly what it's about. And the thing of it all is you didn't even refute the premise -- you actually agreed with it, you just don't seem to understand why what you're saying is exactly the problem for a lot of fans. I try to explain to you how it would be in other terms, but you blithely ignore it and repeat the same vacuous statements. We don't even disagree on what's going. You plainly acknowledge what has happened, but completely ignore the how and why of it and instead focus just on the what.
    Last edited by Dred; 08-01-2019 at 08:15 PM.

  8. #188
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    An example of an argument that I didn't make is what a strawman is. So yes, it is an example, and it is still a strawman.

    Do you know what else is a bad arguement? Saying "someone else had it happen, too!" Yeah, other characters have been screwed over by DC, but only really Cassie Sandsmark and Steph Brown have a situation even remotely similar to Wally, and even then it's much more minor ripoffs.

    The reboot argument is still super weak because A) it started before the reboot B) it has continued well past Wally's return and C) the reboot is a crappy excuse inherently because DC chose plenty of stuff to keep and the entire reboot was half assed with the starting point 5 years into their careers, so not even a real damn reboot.
    I'd actually say Tim Drake may be getting close to that list. Between Red Hood and Damian and Reboots, he's had just about everything that was cool about Tim taken away, switched, shifted and left with little more than an empty shell that seems to just take up space. Everything from his role as partner, to his modernized costume have been usurped and claimed by retcons to Dick and Jason.

  9. #189
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    I’d say there is one specific aspect here that may be easy to overlook:

    Because Wally’s stories acknowledged Barry’s, it felt like characters and familiar tropes were being *built* on, not just copied. This allowed momentum, originality, and a feeling of prestige and progress to flourish under Waid’s (and later Johns’s) pen.

    Perhaps it would really be better for Barry and the franchise if Wally’s time as Flash was more thoroughly acknowledged, and Barry’s stories more resolutely *built* on his and Wally’s adventures, rather than trying to be condensed into one story where whoever the primary Flash is has to not just get pre-eminence over the “toys,” but also nab and repeat successful elements as though they are either exclusively or primarily his?

    Maybe it’d be better if, say Captain Cold actually had more admiration and a more mellow attitude towards Wally, and while he respects Barry, is more outright chilly and threatening to him because he sees their history as more personal in its antagonism? Or maybe some of Wally’s more specific Rogues wind up trying too pick a fight with Barry because Wally knows them too well and they think they have an idea for tricking “the old man?”

    Maybe civilians actually have an in-universe debate about who’s the better Flash?

    I mean, I know all of that is antithetical to the “Maximize the marketing appeal of a single character per IP and damn all others!” belief that Didio is behind, but a good writer with some nuance could use that kind of approach to make Barry *grow* in the role... so he doesn’t feel like a desperate attempt to recapture old glory days by copying things from a successor who, frankly wound up with a superior quality of writing and world building during his run just because he was allowed to grow with more modern writing.
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  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I'd actually say Tim Drake may be getting close to that list. Between Red Hood and Damian and Reboots, he's had just about everything that was cool about Tim taken away, switched, shifted and left with little more than an empty shell that seems to just take up space. Everything from his role as partner, to his modernized costume have been usurped and claimed by retcons to Dick and Jason.
    Tim's kind of been in a directionless position but I don't think any of the other Robins really took his schtick. Being the smartest detective and most level headed of the batfam is still kind of his thing and I don't think Damian or Jason took that out from under him. And, heck, over time they pushed Tim more towards falling into line with the rest of the batfam ala parent trauma and whatnot. Jason and Damian took all the spotlight, which can be said for a lot more characters, but I kind of pointed out Cassie and Steph specifically because a relatively big part of their characters -- Cassie's origins and driving narration and Steph's age and attitude -- were completely snatched away by their predecessors.

    Heck, Damian started out as Dick's partner and he basically never shows up with Bruce for a long time. No one does since Snyder's run, really.
    Last edited by Dred; 08-01-2019 at 08:36 PM.

  11. #191
    Amazing Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    You've been proven wrong, many times before, sometimes completely demonstrably so, and it never errs you in this. The truth rarely matters to you. Popping into an argument, spouting vague nothings, and then going "I AM OF COURSE RIGHT" after being proven wrong is about what I should expect, though.

    Look, man, you came to this thread knowing exactly what it's about. And the thing of it all is you didn't even refute the premise -- you actually agreed with it, you just don't seem to understand why what you're saying is exactly the problem for a lot of fans. I try to explain to you how it would be in other terms, but you blithely ignore it and repeat the same vacuous statements. We don't even disagree on what's going. You plainly acknowledge what has happened, but completely ignore the how and why of it and instead focus just on the what.
    You never actually proved me wrong, you just kept making samey, overemotional arguments and just chalked-up everything I said to being "BS", "Undercooked" or "disingenuous". But if it makes you feel better, you can keep saying I was wrong. I am going to agree to disagree with you.

    I didn't agree with the premise of the thread. I agreed that Barry's personality has changed in some ways but I disagree that he has become Wally West. This is pointless to bring-up as it just circles this back round to the beginning. I am not going to argue this point with you again. If you want that argument, re-read the thread. You gave your side in (in, to me, a badly reasoned and overemotional way) and I gave my side. Ultimately, arguing with you has become a pointless endeavour. I know I am right, you are the same and if this continues, we will keep going in circles.
    Last edited by KC; 08-01-2019 at 08:39 PM.
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  12. #192
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I'd actually say Tim Drake may be getting close to that list. Between Red Hood and Damian and Reboots, he's had just about everything that was cool about Tim taken away, switched, shifted and left with little more than an empty shell that seems to just take up space. Everything from his role as partner, to his modernized costume have been usurped and claimed by retcons to Dick and Jason.
    It's a damn shame too, because in the late 1980s/early 1990s, Tim saved the Robin character from obsolescence. In the wake of Jason's death, many fans were wondering if there was still a place for Robin in the modern Batman mythos. Tim proved that there was.

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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    You never actually proved me wrong, you just kept making samey, overemotional arguments and just chalked-up everything I said to being "BS", "Undercooked" or "disingenuous". But if it makes you feel better, you can keep saying I was wrong. I am going to agree to disagree with you.

    I didn't agree with the premise of the thread. I agreed that Barry's personality has changed in some ways but I disagree that he has become Wally West. This is pointless to bring-up as it just circles this back round to the beginning. I am not going to argue this point with you again. If you want that argument, re-read the thread. You gave your side in (in, to me, a badly reasoned and overemotional way) and I gave my side. Ultimately, arguing with you has become a pointless endeavour. I know I am right, you are the same and if this continues, we will keep going in circles.
    I gave you multiple direct examples of exactly what I was talking about. I named names, I named characters, I named themes, I even gave you direct parallels comparing Wally's tenure and Barry's second tenure and you just ignored them because you never actually address any argument anyone makes directly. Claiming that I'M the one stating samey nonsense when I go well out of my way to give you a plethora of different examples is not just wrong, it is fundamentally preposterous. Congratulations on doing the DC comics version is "I know you are but what am I." You never give examples of anything anytime anyone asks you for anything. This isn't a "side." The things I said were facts of what happened in the comics, which I then extrapolated my opinions on.

    You can feel free to not feel how I feel about these things. But you're arguing that I'm "wrong" about something when I just plainly state things that happened in the comics.
    Last edited by Dred; 08-01-2019 at 08:58 PM.

  14. #194
    Amazing Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I gave you multiple direct examples of exactly what I was talking about. I named names, I named characters, I named themes, I even gave you direct parallels comparing Wally's tenure and Barry's second tenure and you just ignored them because you never actually address any argument anyone makes directly. Claiming that I'M the one stating samey nonsense when I go well out of my way to give you a plethora of different examples is not just wrong, it is fundamentally preposterous. Congratulations on doing the DC comics version is "I know you are but what am I." You never give examples of anything anytime anyone asks you for anything. This isn't a "side." The things I said were facts of what happened in the comics, which I then extrapolated my opinions on.

    You can feel free to not feel how I feel about these things. But you're arguing that I'm "wrong" about something when I just plainly state things that happened in the comics.
    You made points and I refuted them, that’s how this works. I would tell you that the way you painted what has happened on this thread is ridiculously one-sided and refute your points but I am still going to agree to disagree. Which is something you seem to be struggling to grasp (as well as taking a hint. Jesus Christ).
    Last edited by KC; 08-01-2019 at 09:23 PM.
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  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    You made points and I refuted them, that’s how this works. I would tell you that the way you painted what has happened on this thread is ridiculously one-sided and refute your points but I am still going to agree to disagree. Which is something you seem to be struggling to grasp (as well as taking a hint. Jesus Christ).
    You literally never addressed any point. You said one thing, assumed that that one generalized statements encompasses all situations without actually even explaining how or why it would, and then started saying "I'm right" over and over again. This is a recurring theme.

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