When did Barry Allen become Wally West?

[Dr. Ellingham]

And when they do, it's better not to go too deep in one direction, don't you think? I mean, you sure can tell the exact same Batgirl story using either Babs or Steph, but when you start mentioning being a person with disabilities for a while or having been trough a teenage pregnancy, ten you lock which character you've been using.

Yes. I'm not arguing they should be indistinct; just that blending character aspects does take place. Sometimes purposely- Flash/GL in Kingdom Come, GL in Superman TAS, etc.

But I think the elephant in the room is turf. Or rather, what's Wally's turf now that Barry is the Flash? After Flash Rebirth, I remember every time Barry cracked wise, there were complaints that they were "stealing" Wally's humor and giving it to Barry. Which is <lotsa not nice adjectives> crazy.

And here we are, 10 years later, and it seems like the same conversation: how do we box these characters such that Barry remains the decidedly retro, man out of time character? I know you aren't personally advocating that. But isn't it clear some readers are?

[BohemiaDrinker]

And here we are, 10 years later, and it seems like the same conversation: how do we box these characters such that Barry remains the decidedly retro, man out of time character? I know you aren't personally advocating that. But isn't it clear some readers are?

I don't think so. Of course I can't speak for anyone else, but the idea of Barry being frozen in the bowtie/crewcut/straight-man persona (one that he kinda never really been) is not one I see being really defended.

If we're gonna talk turf, let's use a simple example: Both Barry and Wally had a relationship with Hal Jordan, right? We've seen many Flash/GL team-ups with either Flash. Do both Flashes relate to Hal Jordan the same way? Of course not.

From then on, it's simple: Pied Piper is not "The Flash's friend". He is Wally's friend. On the same vein, a reformed Heatwave is not Wally's friend. One of them is impulsive, the other is not. One of them is sarcastic, the other has a more observational humor. One is humble, the other is a glory whore. Powerset-wise there are also tons of differences. And on and on and on. It is completely possible to "modernize" both characters without stepping on anyone's toes. And the reason that it has been done so poorly is because tat was never a concern: The motto right now is to **** Wally up and give all the cool **** to Barry. And it's been for over ten years, so the discussion remains the same: the reason the complaints mostly haven't evolved is because DC keeps doing the same ****. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dred]

Wally does not own any particular character traits and the character traits that have been given to Barry are pretty ubiquitous for modern characters.

If that were the case everyone in the JL would be acting like Barry does, but they don't, because that's a load of bull.

Barry basically jacks Wally's role and personality in team environments, and jacks everything else in the solo comics. This is obviously a generalization but if you can name one Barry comic since he came back that didn't have the words Speed Force in it then I might be able to humor the idea that Barry's not doing a Wally impression.

But now we're going to get to the whole whataboutism part of the conversation, where someone brings up The Rogues, and I have to point out how Wally has a bunch of his own rogues and the handful or Rogues he did reuse were greatly retooled and recreated for his comics and blah blah. I know. It's impossible to convince you. Great conversation.

[KC]

If that were the case everyone in the JL would be acting like Barry does, but they don't, because that's a load of bull.

Barry basically jacks Wally's role and personality in team environments, and jacks everything else in the solo comics. This is obviously a generalization but if you can name one Barry comic since he came back that didn't have the words Speed Force in it then I might be able to humor the idea that Barry's not doing a Wally impression.

But now we're going to get to the whole whataboutism part of the conversation, where someone brings up The Rogues, and I have to point out how Wally has a bunch of his own rogues and the handful or Rogues he did reuse were greatly retooled and recreated for his comics and blah blah. I know. It's impossible to convince you. Great conversation.

I clearly did not mean ubiquitous for all modern characters. Wally has character traits that can be seen in many modern characters

Barry doesn't "jack" anything. These characters operate in a shared universe so when things are added to the universe they are going to be used for different characters.

The Speed Force is a part of the DC Universe and is directly linked to Barry. So, of course, he is going to use it.

It isn't really a "whataboutism" as Wally using Barry's Rogues (it does not matter if they were changed) shows that even Wally shares in the shared universe. And it can even make for good stories and it can even be good for the characters who were shared.

[Dred]

I clearly did not mean ubiquitous for all modern characters. Wally has character traits that can be seen in many modern characters

Barry doesn't "jack" anything. These characters operate in a shared universe so when things are added to the universe they are going to be used for different characters.

The Speed Force is a part of the DC Universe and is directly linked to Barry. So, of course, he is going to use it.

It isn't really a "whataboutism" as Wally using Barry's Rogues (it does not matter if they were changed) shows that even Wally shares in the shared universe. And it can even make for good stories and it can even be good for the characters who were shared.

Barry was literally given the discovering and exploration of the Speed Force. They also stripped the flash family concept from Wally and recentered it on Barry. With, like, very on the nose pictures showing a bunch of tiny flash family members feeding off Barry's greatness in a freaking cave painting.

When Wally used Barry's characters they were changed and, largely, improved and the connections to Barry were respected and built upon. They did the exact opposite with Barry. They took everything from Wally and pretended like Wally was never a part of any of it. Please stop trying to make false equivalences. We just got done with a story about how Turtle was always a super powerful, momentum slowing threat to The Flash and that's how it was when Barry first started even though, hey, that was something invented in Wally's era and the fact that it derives from Wally is given no acknowledgement of respect.

Go back to Wally's era and it's not like Cold just pretends that Barry never existed and Wally was always his enemy.

Every single example you can name is like this. It's not a shared universe because Barry is not sharing any of it. It was all taken from Wally and re-attributed to Barry. Unless you think Hartley is still Wally's friend. Or Max and Wally were still the ones who discovered and understood the Speed Force first. Or any of the villains from Wally's era (hello Axel) no longer having anything to do with Wally because IT. ISN'T. SHARED. There's no sharing involved anymore. When Wally was the Flash he shared Barry's history and, through painstaking effort, all credit and homage was given. When Barry took back over none of it was, and it still isn't. They just ripped everything into pieces so they could sew it back together and replace any instance of Wally with Barry.

[KC]

Barry was literally given the discovering and exploration of the Speed Force. They also stripped the flash family concept from Wally and recentered it on Barry. With, like, very on the nose pictures showing a bunch of tiny flash family members feeding off Barry's greatness in a freaking cave painting.

When Wally used Barry's characters they were changed and, largely, improved and the connections to Barry were respected and built upon. They did the exact opposite with Barry. They took everything from Wally and pretended like Wally was never a part of any of it. Please stop trying to make false equivalences. We just got done with a story about how Turtle was always a super powerful, momentum slowing threat to The Flash and that's how it was when Barry first started even though, hey, that was something invented in Wally's era and the fact that it derives from Wally is given no acknowledgement of respect.

Go back to Wally's era and it's not like Cold just pretends that Barry never existed and Wally was always his enemy.

Every single example you can name is like this. It's not a shared universe because Barry is not sharing any of it. It was all taken from Wally and re-attributed to Barry. Unless you think Hartley is still Wally's friend. Or Max and Wally were still the ones who discovered and understood the Speed Force first. Or any of the villains from Wally's era (hello Axel) no longer having anything to do with Wally because IT. ISN'T. SHARED. There's no sharing involved anymore. When Wally was the Flash he shared Barry's history and, through painstaking effort, all credit and homage was given. When Barry took back over none of it was, and it still isn't. They just ripped everything into pieces so they could sew it back together and replace any instance of Wally with Barry.

Barry loves science. Of course, he is going to explore the Speed Force. Barry joined the Flash family created by Wally pre-Flashpoint and post-Flashpoint he was given his own unique Flash-family.

Barry is sharing all of these things. They were added to the DC toy-box for writers to use them as they like.

[manwhohaseverything]

Barry loves science. Of course, he is going to explore the Speed Force. Barry joined the Flash family created by Wally pre-Flashpoint and post-Flashpoint he was given his own unique Flash-family.

Barry is sharing all of these things. They were added to the DC toy-box for writers to use them as they like.

Exploring the speed force is one thing. What about Being the creator of it? How come barry gets to be the creator when he is not even the first flash. Jay should be the creator, not barry.
No, he is not. If he was wally would be in the flash book as colead and co-main flash. He is not. Infact, he was being actively not allowed in the flash book after his return so that barry can have it all for himself. They even have him say Wally's catch phrase. "my name is ___, i am the fastest man alive" jay garrick doesn't do that as far as i am aware. He is the only other flash. So, saying it's all part of "the flash" franchise package is plain wrong.

[Dred]

Barry loves science. Of course, he is going to explore the Speed Force. Barry joined the Flash family created by Wally pre-Flashpoint and post-Flashpoint he was given his own unique Flash-family.

Barry is sharing all of these things. They were added to the DC toy-box for writers to use them as they like.

Explain to me how they are sharing Hartley. Or the villains. Because, as far as I can see, none of them know or have any history with Wally. Only hunter comes close and I already went over that whole debacle

The only parts of the franchise that you can say remains shared are Bart, who has returned insulated from the bullshit but isn't even really part of The Flash right now, and Iris.

[Frontier]

Explain to me how they are sharing Hartley. Or the villains. Because, as far as I can see, none of them know or have any history with Wally.

The only parts of the franchise that you can say remains shared are Bart, who has returned insulated from the bullshit but isn't even really part of The Flash right now, and Iris.

To be honest Hartley and Barry don't seem to have much of a relationship either in at least the three to four pages they have shared together since the New 52 reboot.

[Dr. Ellingham]

Question - post-Flashpoint how can they share anything? I thought Flashpoint rebooted Wally to Kid Flash / now Wallace. I know Johns attempted to reinsert classic Wally with DC Rebirth, but ever since DC's trying to morph Wally into 1994-1999 Hal Jordan.

That doesn't sound like co-anything.

[Dr. Ellingham]

Pied Piper is not "The Flash's friend". He is Wally's friend. On the same vein, a reformed Heatwave is not Wally's friend.

With you on this.(My list includes Barry making out with Linda Park. Jesus.)

But given that Wally was taken off the board, and DC brought back Barry, the house, and all its contents, transfer to it's new owner. It kinda sucks - as fans we want the characters to stand, their history intact.

It's why I though making Bart the Flash, then pivoting briefly back to Wally, then bringing back Barry were all poor moves. None of that should have been done. (But here we are)

It is completely possible to "modernize" both characters without stepping on anyone's toes.

Absolutely. But then you'd have two lead Flashes, which I don't think makes sense long term. It's all personal preference, but I do think the IP is strongest with exactly one primary Flash, regardless of whether that's Barry or Wally.

[KC]

Exploring the speed force is one thing. What about Being the creator of it? How come barry gets to be the creator when he is not even the first flash. Jay should be the creator, not barry.
No, he is not. If he was wally would be in the flash book as colead and co-main flash. He is not. Infact, he was being actively not allowed in the flash book after his return so that barry can have it all for himself. They even have him say Wally's catch phrase. "my name is ___, i am the fastest man alive" jay garrick doesn't do that as far as i am aware. He is the only other flash. So, saying it's all part of "the flash" franchise package is plain wrong.

When Barry created the Speed force, it rippled through time and space.

The "my name is ___, I am the fastest man alive" has become a part of the Flash package. Like everything that was created or retconned in Wally's run. It is all a part of the DC Universes shared toy-box.

[KC]

Explain to me how they are sharing Hartley. Or the villains. Because, as far as I can see, none of them know or have any history with Wally. Only hunter comes close and I already went over that whole debacle

The only parts of the franchise that you can say remains shared are Bart, who has returned insulated from the bullshit but isn't even really part of The Flash right now, and Iris.

It is shared because they are a part of the universe, a part of the toy-box, and they are being used for Barry.

[manwhohaseverything]

When Barry created the Speed force, it rippled through time and space.

The "my name is ___, I am the fastest man alive" has become a part of the Flash package. Like everything that was created or retconned in Wally's run. It is all a part of the DC Universes shared toy-box.

I was speaking historicaly. As in real world. The honor should be jay garrick's as the real first flash without whom the flash brand wouldn't exist. The stupid retcon from geoff johns doesn't change the fact that barry wasn't the first or the original . No amount of "space-time" nonsense will make him deserve the creator status or original status .
No, it isn't. Then jay should say it as well. Jay doesn't so no not part of the toy box. Wally's personal tagline. And tell me something if everything is stripped from wally and given to barry because of toybox. How is it sharing?
Hate to break it to you. But, Sharing goes both ways.as in, Not just in favor of barry like it is happening now. Shared universe doesn’t mean co-opt personality, taglines, concepts of one character and giving to another without mentioning the former.

[The Darknight Detective]

I was speaking historicaly. As in real world. The honor should be jay garrick's as the real first flash without whom the flash brand wouldn't exist. The stupid retcon from geoff johns doesn't change the fact that barry wasn't the first or the original . No amount of "space-time" nonsense will make him deserve the creator status or original status .
No, it isn't. Then jay should say it as well. Jay doesn't so no not part of the toy box. Wally's personal tagline. And tell me something if everything is stripped from wally and given to barry because of toybox. How is it sharing?
Hate to break it to you. But, Sharing goes both ways.as in, Not just in favor of barry like it is happening now. Shared universe doesn’t mean co-opt personality, taglines, concepts of one character and giving to another without mentioning the former.

It is what it is, though. If someone replaces Barry as the dominant Flash 30 or 40 years from now, he or she will get all of the goodies. No amount of complaining will change that fact, either.