When did Barry Allen become Wally West?

[kcekada]

I liked that leathery look of Waid's Flash. I think Wally had opaque lenses as well during this time.

[Frontier]

I always thought this worked best, even though "Barry" was Eobard Thawne in disguise.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I like how Van Sciver gave Wally the darker suit with the white eyes to distinguish him from Barry even if in practice it didn't look as good.

[Lee]

I. do. not. care. if. they. use. the. same. characters.

I do not know how many times you want me to repeat this. My gripe is not that Girder showed up at all in Barry's comics. I've stated this, unequivocally, four times now. Please stop making me repeat it. The reason I bring up characters like Axel Walker or, in your example, Girder, is not that I'm aghast that they appear in a Barry comic. That's cool enough for me. It's that Barry is using elements of Wally's history without using Wally's history, which is the exact opposite of how it worked for Wally when he would use characters and history from Barry's time. And that's the point. They want all the value and development and interesting characters and interesting concepts from Wally's run because they clearly realize it's integral to The Flash and amazing to boot, but they want all that integral lore and history to be for Barry instead of Wally. So they rewrite all this history, rewrite all these characters, rewrite all these concepts so that none of them apply to Wally anymore and they all apply to Barry.

That is the gripe. That is the premise of this thread -- Barry becoming Wally, and NOT just in personality. And it's just true. It's what they've done. All these villains couldn't give a shit about or know anything about Wally. The entire Flash franchise, by design, was recreated such as to make Wally ancillary and unimportant. Imagine, just freaking imagine, if they did that with Barry. How much all the people arguing against me would flip their lids.

The direction the writers/artists/editors were handed was a rebooted Flash universe where there was only one Flash. A writer can't acknowledge Wally's history with Girder if Wally isn't available to them, or part of the new continuity. The only options are to use Girder within that setting, or not use Girder at all.

[Frontier]

The direction the writers/artists/editors were handed was a rebooted Flash universe where there was only one Flash. A writer can't acknowledge Wally's history with Girder if Wally isn't available to them, or part of the new continuity. The only options are to use Girder within that setting, or not use Girder at all.

This would be my handling of it. Seems fairer to Wally to me.

[Dred]

The direction the writers/artists/editors were handed was a rebooted Flash universe where there was only one Flash. A writer can't acknowledge Wally's history with Girder if Wally isn't available to them, or part of the new continuity. The only options are to use Girder within that setting, or not use Girder at all.

I would get this argument if this was 2012. It is halfway through 2019. Wally has been back for THREE YEARS. There is no excuse anymore. If Superman and Wonder Woman can fix it, and if Batman and GL can have avoided the problem the entire time, there's literally no excuse for these things to stand and, even worse, for them to continue like they have.

Telling me a reboot happened 10 years ago is not a solution or an mitigating factor to my argument.

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

I would get this argument if this was 2012. It is halfway through 2019. Wally has been back for THREE YEARS. There is no excuse anymore. If Superman and Wonder Woman can fix it, and if Batman and GL can have avoided the problem the entire time, there's literally no excuse for these things to stand and, even worse, for them to continue like they have.

Telling me a reboot happened 10 years ago is not a solution or an mitigating factor to my argument.

Wally's history HAS been acknowledged in the main Flash book since then though. Barry has stated numerous times that Wally took over for a time. When he did show up in the Grodd arc he was treated as more competent than Barry, while retaining his more spiritual connection to the Speedforce.

Hunter's whole reintroduction was based around Wally, as was Magenta's. He's also the only one who has fought Kadabra since Rebirth, should Barry fans be pissed about that? Should he never fight The Rogues again? I'd like to see it happen at some point. Also, I see no reason to bring up Girder or Axel's connection to Wally's Flash because he never had a personal connection to either of them?

As far as I'm concerned, Barry and Piper have barely glanced at eachother since his return, let alone become his bff.

Do I think Wally needs to be used more? Hell yeah. THAT'S the problem, not Barry using post-crisis Flash elements and if anything keeping them relevent.

[Frontier]

Wally's history HAS been acknowledged in the main Flash book since then though. Barry has stated numerous times that Wally took over for a time. When he did show up in the Grodd arc he was treated as more competent than Barry, while retaining his more spiritual connection to the Speedforce. Hunter's whole reintroduction was based around Wally, as was Magenta's. He's also the only one who has fought Kadabra since Rebirth, should Barry fans be pissed about that? Should he never fight The Rogues again? I'd like to see that. Also, I see no reason to bring up Girder or Axel's connection to Wally's Flash because he never had a personal connection to either of them? As far as I'm concerned, Barry and Piper have barely glanced at eachother since his return, let alone become his bff.

Do I think Wally needs to be used more? Hell yeah. THAT'S the problem, not Barry using post-crisis Flash elements and if anything keeping them relevent.

They've never confirmed Wally took over for a time. That's only been true as far as Wally's memories.

I think Axel makes more sense as a Wally villain since they're both legacies.

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

They've never confirmed Wally took over for a time. That's only been true as far as Wally's memories.

I think Axel makes more sense as a Wally villain since they're both legacies.

It was definitely stated in the Titans annual and I'm positive it was stated near the beginning of Rebirth, I'd have to check exactly when though.

Axel's legacy status doesn't prevent him from fighting Barry though. Nor does it really make it relevent that he fought Wally first. Characters like Piper or Zolomon should always have that connection. Axel? Meh.

[Rend20]

Wally's history HAS been acknowledged in the main Flash book since then though. Barry has stated numerous times that Wally took over for a time. When he did show up in the Grodd arc he was treated as more competent than Barry, while retaining his more spiritual connection to the Speedforce.

In the Grodd arc, Wally was referred to as the Pretender, False Flash, and a rookie by other characters because his history doesn't exist.

And, no, he was not shown to be more competent than Barry. He did very little while Barry was validated believing he was the only Flash worth anything by getting to save the day.

Hunter's whole reintroduction was based around Wally.

Where Williamson quickly changed Hunter's powers, motivations, and had him toss Wally aside so he could become a Barry-villain.

[The Darknight Detective]

They've never confirmed Wally took over for a time. That's only been true as far as Wally's memories.

Right, Frontier. DCU memories in this universe are as relevant as the pre-COIE memories were during the DCU.

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

In the Grodd arc, Wally was referred to as the Pretender, False Flash, and a rookie by other characters because his history doesn't exist.

And, no, he was not shown to be more competent than Barry. He did very little while Barry was validated believing he was the only Flash worth anything by getting to save the day.



Where Williamson quickly changed Hunter's powers, motivations, and had him toss Wally aside so he could become a Barry-villain.

Barry hoarding the speedforce and cutting off the other speedsters, while Wally is clearly shown to have the situation under control isn't meant to make Barry look better than Wally.

Also, look at who was saying that about Wally. Godspeed? Who cares? Wally could've obviously wiped the floor with him. Pretty sure that was the joke. Grodd instantly identified Wally as a major threat without even remembering him.

I don't know what's supposed to make Zolomon solely a Barry villain now.

[Frontier]

It was definitely stated in the Titans annual and I'm positive it was stated near the beginning of Rebirth, I'd have to check exactly when though.

I think that was just Wally talking about his experience on his Earth. Nobody seems to remember when he was The Flash and took over for Barry.

Axel's legacy status doesn't prevent him from fighting Barry though. Nor does it really make it relevent that he fought Wally first. Characters like Piper or Zolomon should always have that connection. Axel? Meh.

I mean, he can fight Barry but I think he fits more as a Wally villain.

[Rend20]

Barry hoarding the speedforce and cutting off the other speedsters, while Wally is clearly shown to have the situation under control isn't meant to make Barry look better than Wally.

Barry was adamant the only way to beat Grodd is if he got his powers back and that's exactly what happened. The inherent implication to that is Wally isn't capable of doing it. All Wally did was evacuate the citizens and thrash a named mook (losing Iris in the process) which is hardly having the Grodd situation under control in my opinion.

Grodd instantly identified Wally as a major threat without even remembering him.

Grodd is the one who called him the False Flash. There's also a difference between Wally being strong and being more competent than Barry.

I don't know what's supposed to make Zolomon solely a Barry villain now.

Williamson changing Hunter's motivation and tossing Wally aside to fit Barry? Hunter going on some tangent about Barry prior to Flash War even though Barry had little to do with his plans? I don't mind Barry fighting Hunter, but the personal interest Hunter has taken in Barry is something Thawne never did with Wally.

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

Barry was adamant the only way to beat Grodd is if he got his powers back and that's exactly what happened. The inherent implication to that is Wally isn't capable of doing it. All Wally did was evacuate the citizens and thrash a named mook (losing Iris in the process) which is hardly having the Grodd situation under control in my opinion.



Grodd is the one who called him the False Flash. There's also a difference between Wally being strong and being more competent than Barry.



Williamson changing Hunter's motivation and tossing Wally aside to fit Barry? Hunter going on some tangent about Barry prior to Flash War even though Barry had little to do with his plans? I don't mind Barry fighting Hunter, but the personal interest Hunter has taken in Barry is something Thawne never did with Wally.

I don't know how well you remember the arc but the entire point was that Barry fell right into Grodd's trap by trying to go at it alone. Even Barry acknowledges that it was the wrong move to make by the end of the arc. Just because everything turned out okay in the end doesn't mean that it was a moment used to glorify Barry over Wally. Wally figured out the trap that was set and even warned Barry but Barry didn't listen. Barry let his own personal insecurities come before the mission. That doesn't make Barry look very competent IMO. It seemed pretty obvious to me that if Barry hadn't interfered, Wally could have taken him down.

Grodd smack-talking Wally doesn't concern me when in the same story he makes a point of acknowledging that Wally is too powerful for his evil speedsters to fight and that he had a deep spiritiual connection to the speedforce.

As for Zolomon, his relationship (if you can call it that) with Barry doesn't take away from his relationship with Wally. There's still plenty of bad blood between the two of them and as far as we know Zolomon is the only person who knows where Wally's kids are. That sounds pretty personal to me. I wouldn't mind Thawne having a secondary interest in Wally either.

[Dred]

Wally's history HAS been acknowledged in the main Flash book since then though. Barry has stated numerous times that Wally took over for a time. When he did show up in the Grodd arc he was treated as more competent than Barry, while retaining his more spiritual connection to the Speedforce.

Hunter's whole reintroduction was based around Wally, as was Magenta's. He's also the only one who has fought Kadabra since Rebirth, should Barry fans be pissed about that? Should he never fight The Rogues again? I'd like to see it happen at some point. Also, I see no reason to bring up Girder or Axel's connection to Wally's Flash because he never had a personal connection to either of them?

As far as I'm concerned, Barry and Piper have barely glanced at eachother since his return, let alone become his bff.

Do I think Wally needs to be used more? Hell yeah. THAT'S the problem, not Barry using post-crisis Flash elements and if anything keeping them relevent.

Barry has never stated that Wally took over, merely that he believes Wally when Wally said he did. As a matter of fact, a big point of contention in Flash War is that Wally's entire history hadn't happened. Hunter Zolomon had to recreate it to refresh Wally's memories as they weren't actually a part of the Flash Museum. The Flash Museum notably did not exist yet during it which it obviously did well before Wally ever became The Flash. The entire point of Wally's brief tenure in the current Flash book was that his life WAS gone.

I have already mentioned Hunter several times in this thread.

Magenta, or Frances particularly, is a part of Wally's Kid Flash life. She is a Wolfman creation. Which is kind of my point in all of this, DC only wants to give Wally what he had when he was Kid Flash, as that's all they seem to acknowledge him as, and will take things from his time as Flash and rewrite history to attribute them to Barry even when Wally is present.

The problem isn't just that Wally is underused. I can't stress this enough. The problem is they are taking everything from Wally's run that they like, rewriting it so that Wally is excised and irrelevant to it, and placing Barry in his place. They literally just did it. Year One is a giant story about Barry vs the Turtle where the Turtle apparently, actually, ALWAYS had his super slow down powers even though a big deal of his confrontation with Wally was him discovering these powers that would put him on par with The Flash. They rewrote the character and history of all 3 to accomodate BARRY being the one he unleashes this on. And this has continued and been the case BEFORE the reboot, during the reboot, and after Wally's return.

It was definitely stated in the Titans annual and I'm positive it was stated near the beginning of Rebirth, I'd have to check exactly when though.

Axel's legacy status doesn't prevent him from fighting Barry though. Nor does it really make it relevent that he fought Wally first. Characters like Piper or Zolomon should always have that connection. Axel? Meh.

It was never stated in Titans. As a matter of fact, one of the biggest statements of Titans is that Wally's history never existed because Abra Kadabra erased it before he could ever become The Flash. That is why his magic zap touch would not work on anyone who only knew him as The Flash -- QED, it did not work on Linda. All Titans confirmed is that he existed as Kid Flash and only Kid Flash.

Axel got his career started by fighting Wally. Imagine if Captain Cold or James Jesse showed up in Wally's comics and pretended like they never had a duel with Barry Allen and that Wally West was the only Flash they'd ever known or fought. It'd be preposterous and downright disrespectful to their history.

But when it comes to literally everything that ever happened in Wally's career being exactly like that it's waived off as blasé.

Barry hoarding the speedforce and cutting off the other speedsters, while Wally is clearly shown to have the situation under control isn't meant to make Barry look better than Wally.

Also, look at who was saying that about Wally. Godspeed? Who cares? Wally could've obviously wiped the floor with him. Pretty sure that was the joke. Grodd instantly identified Wally as a major threat without even remembering him.

I don't know what's supposed to make Zolomon solely a Barry villain now.

Wally never found a way or suggested a way to stop Grodd. Barry got his powers back, which "Fucked up" only to immediately solve the problem and prove himself correct the whole time. He accomplished more in one issue than Wally did in the entire arc the moment he got his powers back. Wally beat up some no name henchman. Reread the arc. Barry comes off as a insolent, rude, mistrusting moron but he ENDS UP SAVING THE DAY AND BEING RIGHT.

As for Zolomon, let me put it this way. Explain Zolomon's motivation and character arc before Flash War happened. Then explain it to me afterwards.

I don't know how well you remember the arc but the entire point was that Barry fell right into Grodd's trap by trying to go at it alone. Even Barry acknowledges that it was the wrong move to make by the end of the arc. Just because everything turned out okay in the end doesn't mean that it was a moment used to glorify Barry over Wally. Wally figured out the trap that was set and even warned Barry but Barry didn't listen. Barry let his own personal insecurities come before the mission. That doesn't make Barry look very competent IMO. It seemed pretty obvious to me that if Barry hadn't interfered, Wally could have taken him down.

Grodd smack-talking Wally doesn't concern me when in the same story he makes a point of acknowledging that Wally is too powerful for his evil speedsters to fight and that he had a deep spiritiual connection to the speedforce.

As for Zolomon, his relationship (if you can call it that) with Barry doesn't take away from his relationship with Wally. There's still plenty of bad blood between the two of them and as far as we know Zolomon is the only person who knows where Wally's kids are. That sounds pretty personal to me. I wouldn't mind Thawne having a secondary interest in Wally either.

If Barry's solution is that him getting his powers back makes all of that irrelevant, and then he gets his powers back and saves the day and all the things you listed are irrelevant, what does that make of it? Because Barry never gets told off or served comeuppance for his hubris. He gets proven right. All Wally did was lose Iris, the ONE THING he was trusted with.


I honestly don't want to turn this into a "bash Williamson's run" thread, it's a bigger picture than that. Williamson is just continuing and ongoing process of invalidation of Wally's history.