When did Barry Allen become Wally West?

[manwhohaseverything]

That's the core of this debate - a lot of later fans want to lock Barry into the stuffy and retro portrayal we've seen ever since Crisis.

But all of the core JLA characters have been revamped to be more modern. Some several times.

Barry's just not the lone exception anymore.

Is that why batman and superman are wearing underwear outside their pants? Oh! Well, you know what they say. More things change more they stay the same.
Problem isn't barry being made modern, but being made wally to do it.

[KC]

Clark is pretty old fashioned. He does pretty well. Sometimes even says "great scott" in many interpretations.

Clark has been modernized a few times and is not as old-fashioned as he used to be. I can't remember the last time he sad "Great Scott" in the main universe. And if he did, he does not use it in any kind of frequency.

[KC]

Problem isn't barry being made modern, but being made wally to do it.

Wally does not own any particular character traits and the character traits that have been given to Barry are pretty ubiquitous for modern characters.

[kcekada]

It also permeated Waid/Kane's LIFE STORY OF THE FLASH. LIFE STORY was great, but it retconned out Barry's 1970s/1980s "Robert Redford" look entirely.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Right. That was how I always pictured Barry. He wasn't stuck in the past. The buzz cut and bow tie were mostly appropriate for the Silver Age, and the blown dry hair was appropriate for the Bronze Age.

[Buried Alien]

Right. That was how I always pictured Barry. He wasn't stuck in the past. The buzz cut and bow tie were mostly appropriate for the Silver Age, and the blown dry hair was appropriate for the Bronze Age.

It's funny how, in the original comics, Barry made the switch almost *exactly* when the calendar flipped over from 1969 to 1970. 1969 - the year that human beings landed on the moon, the Woodstock music festival took place, the Beatles released ABBEY ROAD, and Barry Allen ditched the crew cut!

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[manwhohaseverything]

Clark has been modernized a few times and is not as old-fashioned as he used to be. I can't remember the last time he sad "Great Scott" in the main universe. And if he did, he does not use it in any kind of frequency.

Dude, Bendis's clark kent reeks of Christopher reeve and classic clumsy clark. Geoff John's writes him like that too.

In this clark basically says "splicaty-split", "great caesar's ghost".. Etc. That is cw.
All i am saying, is that i like it when it comes from morally straight guys like clark and old barry(before the mom death angst). It adds to their charm and makes them unique . Characters can be brought to modern world at the same time remain old fashioned. All might is also pretty old fashioned corny as **** superhero.

[KC]

Dude, Bendis's clark kent reeks of Christopher reeve and classic clumsy clark. Geoff John's writes him like that too.

In this clark basically says "splicaty-split", "great caesar's ghost".. Etc. That is cw.
All i am saying, is that i like it when it comes from morally straight guys like clark and old barry(before the mom death angst). It adds to their charm and makes them unique . Characters can be brought to modern world at the same time remain old fashioned. All might is also pretty old fashioned corny as **** superhero.

Bendis' Clark is clumsy (as a disguise) but I would not call him old-fashioned.

He says lickety-split. But there is no indication that he uses such expressions regularly and from what I have seen from the show, he doesn't.

You say " adds to their charm and makes them unique" I say it makes them look odd, they are contemporary characters and should be written as such. There are ways to make the characters still themselves without making them old-fashioned.

All-Might is helped by the fact that the world of My Hero Academia is corny in the usual manga/anime way.

[Dr. Ellingham]

Problem isn't barry being made modern, but being made wally to do it.

Sure, that's not ideal. And some writers will - inevitably - write them interchangeably at times.

Now, I haven't read Flash since Flashpoint. But I saw the first 3 seasons of the TV show, and recently sat through the Justice League film (unfortunately). Through all that content, I never thought Barry was being Wallyfied.

Going by this thread, several Wally fans think this. Now, Im fairly agnostic on lead Flashes, and I think some bleedthrough is to be expected. The best ideas get retained, and the best writers on Flash include two Wally-era writers - Waid and Johns.

So now I'm curious. Barry Allen fans: Do you agree this is happening? And if so - are you pissed off about it too?

[manwhohaseverything]

Bendis' Clark is clumsy (as a disguise) but I would not call him old-fashioned.

He says lickety-split. But there is no indication that he uses such expressions regularly and from what I have seen from the show, he doesn't.

You say " adds to their charm and makes them unique" I say it makes them look odd, they are contemporary characters and should be written as such. There are ways to make the characters still themselves without making them old-fashioned.

All-Might is helped by the fact that the world of My Hero Academia is corny in the usual manga/anime way.

Not really. Deku isn't corny or old fashioned Nor is others in his generation. Clumsiness and timid way clark speaks is old fashioned, when bendis writes him.

That's why this is the best superman scene they had in the entire cwverse,in my opinion. Clark feels like clark nerdy, clumsy, using words that are not in use any more.it went downhill from here on out.

You don't think bad about all might because he is written like a badass legend. even with all the corniness and wierd speech he retains that authority and experience. The weird speech pattern is also part of the all might persona. Characters like barry and clark should be that.

So what if they feel odd. This isn't an army or some boarding school where everyone has to be the same. These guys are from different backgrounds and have joined together because of common goals. Ofcourse, there will odd balls and personality mismatches. The problem with the New52 was exactly the same thinking. They even tried to give them similar armour like costumes. It doesn't work especially for these characters. They are not marvel characters. These guys were created separately and stitched up together later.

[BohemiaDrinker]

That's the core of this debate - a lot of later fans want to lock Barry into the stuffy and retro portrayal we've seen ever since Crisis.

I don't think that's the core of this debate, honestly. As I said before, there's a lot of overlap between those characters - and all the other Flashes and speedsters in general, since Flash is traditionally one of the more "thematic" franchises at DC - and there are traits that are specific to some characters. Let's put it this way: Barry always had a sense of humor, and Wally always had a sense of humor. It's not the same sense of humor. You don't go to a Dave Chapelle show expecting to see Chris Rock. Same goes here: fighting the rogues is ONE thing, being all best friends with Pied Piper is ANOTHER thing.

Put as a question: Current Barry is not much older than TV Barry. TV Barry grew up in the 1990s. Why would he be an "old fashioned" guy?

He wouldn't. I don't think I've seen anyone here advocating for a return of the bowtie.

Wally does not own any particular character traits

Yes, he does.

and the character traits that have been given to Barry are pretty ubiquitous for modern characters.

No, they aren't.

Sure, that's not ideal. And some writers will - inevitably - write them interchangeably at times.

And when they do, it's better not to go too deep in one direction, don't you think? I mean, you sure can tell the exact same Batgirl story using either Babs or Steph, but when you start mentioning being a person with disabilities for a while or having been trough a teenage pregnancy, ten you lock which character you've been using.

Now, I haven't read Flash since Flashpoint. But I saw the first 3 seasons of the TV show, and recently sat through the Justice League film (unfortunately). Through all that content, I never thought Barry was being Wallyfied.

TV show is undoubtedly a weird blend (that I think still works for the most part), but movie Barry has no Wally and very, very little Barry in it. It's a totally different animal that drinks as little from the comics as possible, which I think is a shame.

Going by this thread, several Wally fans think this. Now, Im fairly agnostic on lead Flashes, and I think some bleedthrough is to be expected. The best ideas get retained, and the best writers on Flash include two Wally-era writers - Waid and Johns.

Not all of the ideas that get retained are compatible with the character they're being grated into, though.

[KC]

Not really. Deku isn't corny or old fashioned Nor is others in his generation. Clumsiness and timid way clark speaks is old fashioned, when bendis writes him.

That's why this is the best superman scene they had in the entire cwverse,in my opinion. Clark feels like clark nerdy, clumsy, using words that are not in use any more.it went downhill from here on out.

You don't think bad about all might because he is written like a badass legend. even with all the corniness and wierd speech he retains that authority and experience. The weird speech pattern is also part of the all might persona. Characters like barry and clark should be that.

So what if they feel odd. This isn't an army or some boarding school where everyone has to be the same. These guys are from different backgrounds and have joined together because of common goals. Ofcourse, there will odd balls and personality mismatches. The problem with the New52 was exactly the same thinking. They even tried to give them similar armour like costumes. It doesn't work especially for these characters. They are not marvel characters. These guys were created separately and stitched up together later.

Cornyness fits with the shows general aesthetic. It is frequently over-animated. That is a part of a lot of manga/anime. Being clumsy or timid is in no way old -fashioned.

Using out-of-date phrases would have been bad if they kept doing it. I am glad that it was done only once. I love the CW Clark and I can think of many scenes that are better than that one. (but that is not really the point of this so I will drop this argument here).

As I said, All-Might's corniness fits with the shows aesthetic.

Clark and Barry are in their mid 30's or early 40s, nobody in their mid-30s or early-40s acts like that. They are contemporary characters and should act like it or it is odd.

[KC]

Yes, he does.



No, they aren't.

No, he doesn't and yes, they are.

Being, funny, sarcastic, down to earth etc. are all normal character traits for modern characters to have.

Things like the Speed Force and Wally's villains are going to be used by Barry as they both operate in a shared universe.

[Lightning Rider]

While I certainly wouldn't say it was an inaccurate take, Young Justice's version is easily my least favorite outside adaptation of Wally.

I thought they took the worst elements of the character, tossed out the reasons for why those things existed, and basically failed to show most of the good qualities that make the character special. He was basically the selfish jerk from NTT/Baron's run who doubled as the incompetent comic relief (like JLU but worse) that all the other characters laugh at.

I also don't associate being a full-fledged science geek with Wally, which was a pretty crucial part of his character, like I do with Barry. Though YJ did do an excellent job of making their speedsters distinct from one another.

Not the first time I heard that complaint, and it's fair. But I strongly prefer that to the kind of childish greed we saw in JLU, and the constant immaturity. He was serious, and rather than a total science geek, I'd say he was scientifically inclined in terms of his skepticism and rationality.

It's also been a while since I watched it so I don't remember extreme selfishness to the point it put me off.

[Lightning Rider]

No, he doesn't and yes, they are.

Being, funny, sarcastic, down to earth etc. are all normal character traits for modern characters to have.

It's ridiculous to suggest a longstanding popular character with multiple writers doesn't have any particular traits unique to himself.

And often, it's not a general trait itself, but the way it operates in a particular context that defines a personality.

Wally's general brand of sarcastic humor doesn't suit Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Batman, or Aquaman. It has either more levity or more bite than Hal's or Kyle, and doesn't suit John Stewart.

His being "down to Earth" comes from a particular place, being a human being with a conventional family and a lack of an inflated sense of self. As approachable as Superman or Diana might be, they consider themselves to have a destiny far greater than that of an ordinary person. As does obsessive Batman, as does King of Atlantis Aquaman, as do the "chosen", fearless Green Lanterns.

You could say Barry shares that particular trait, but it's just not applicable to all modern heroes. Very strange sentiment imo.

[KC]

It's ridiculous to suggest a longstanding popular character with multiple writers doesn't have any particular traits unique to himself.

And often, it's not a general trait itself, but the way it operates in a particular context that defines a personality.

Wally's general brand of sarcastic humor doesn't suit Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Batman, or Aquaman. It has either more levity or more bite than Hal's or Kyle, and doesn't suit John Stewart.

His being "down to Earth" comes from a particular place, being a human being with a conventional family and a lack of an inflated sense of self. As approachable as Superman or Diana might be, they consider themselves to have a destiny far greater than that of an ordinary person. As does obsessive Batman, as does King of Atlantis Aquaman, as do the "chosen", fearless Green Lanterns.

You could say Barry shares that particular trait, but it's just not applicable to all modern heroes. Very strange sentiment imo.

Most character traits are general and there are so many fictional characters that there is going to be overlap between their traits and multiple characters with the same traits.

Sarcastic humour like that can be applied to many heroes. Hal's humour has both bite and levity and so does Nightwing's and characters from Marvel like Spider-Man and Iron Man.

Superman does not think he has a destiny far greater than that of an ordinary person, he wants to be a hero and that gives him a destiny greater than most heroes. What you described can be applied to many characters like Superman, Nightwing, Tim Drake, Luke Cage and Scott Lang.

And all of these are just Superhero examples, You could find modern characters with these traits in most if not all types of media.

I never said that all heroes have the same traits as Wally. But some do and when Barry was modernized, it is not surprising that some of the traits given to Bary could also be similar to character traits of Wally