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  1. #46
    Son of Satan DevilBat66's Avatar
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    He's a more boring mixture of two "jerk" characters, Quicksilver and the Sub-Mariner.

    Wouldn't buy books about any of them.
    Batman - Detective Comics - Doomsday Clock - Batman: Last Knight On Earth - Titans: Burning Rage - Silver Surfer: Black

  2. #47
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valamist View Post
    Why not both? You can have entertaining stories that do reflect real-life representation and issues. Heck, fictional media is one of the best places to explore these things. Look at the X-Men, for example. Many people find them entertaining, and many people also enjoy the repesentation and social message that comes with them. Not only that, but a more diverse pool of character and cultures can help make a more creative pool to work from.

    I mean sure, fiction is not going to solve all of the problems of the world, but it can help.
    I'm not excluding either, but I guess I'm just starting to get a little tired of some people won't seem to lift a finger beyond the complaints they type on their keyboards. Just recently, I saw a video of a police officer, a black police officer if anyone wants to know, of basically saying that if you the cops are being bad/aren't doing enough (racist cops, corruption, etc.), then consider leaving the protest line, at least for a time, and consider picking up an application so that you can help serve your community towards a better future. That really struck with me, and I'm not saying fiction should be the one to solve all the problems of the world, yes, but if it can get someone motivated enough to actively work towards a solution beyond the keyboard, then great, though again, I think what works best is getting someone motivated enough to actively help contribute towards the right thing in general.

    Maybe that's asking for too much out of some people, but then again, if you're reaching down towards the kindness in your heart as much as possible, carrying your care and concern for others wherever you go, and have a strong enough desire to help have the minorities get along with the majorities in communicating and collaborating towards a better future, then at that point, would it be more unreasonable for me to at the very least suggest the idea of, "what can be done more to help get closer to the solution to the best of one's ability?"

    Just some food for thought.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 07-26-2019 at 12:18 PM.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    There's also Pink Pearl.
    her too. but i think she resides in Bagallia, now.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  4. #49
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    I'm not sure if I agree with this notion that Northstar is too controversial. Maybe in older times, but today he seems to be the safe gay character some people choose to ''like'' whenever they wanna trash Marvel's LGBTQ representation without coming off as bigots. He's become the ''I have a gay friend'' card for some readers.

    Also, I really don't think Iceman being gay had anything to do with Northstar being sidelined, because that was already happening before Bobby came out.
    I was kinda being sarcastic because of how everyone here is reacting. There are more characters that have come out (no pun intended) that Marvel can build up.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Like others have said, the biggest problem is that he's a character best known as part of a niche team with a cult following that hasn't had any success since the 80s (the New Warriors are in a similar situation; they were a big deal in the early 90s, and yet every attempt to revive the book since then has flopped). And of course, the X-Men as a franchise generally have had a very hard time spinning off the characters into solo books; even the really popular ones like Storm, Gambit, Nightcrawler and Cyclops have struggled every time Marvel gave them their own series.

    Now, in the context of movies, that doesn't mean anything. There's no reason he couldn't be a success in the world of film since we've seen time and time again that comic sales and popularity among comic fans has dick all to do with ticket sales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    That hasn't stopped DC from constantly publishing Cyborg comics.
    Just to come back to this, that doesn't really seem like a good example since Cyborg's book got cancelled both times they tried and his movie also looks to have been cancelled. There are examples of pushing ensemble characters successfully to the big time, but Cyborg ain't one of them.

  6. #51
    Spectacular Member Dark-Jacket's Avatar
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    Northstar could have the potential to be Marvel's Flash. Seriously. But there are several problems with him right now.

    As it has been said, he was created as a part of a niche team which has been relegated to a joke and sacrificial lamb by Marvel over the last 20+ years.

    He hasn't been a very likable character in his most iconic moments, his sister was much more interesting and he lacks substance (and being gay is not bringing substance, he hasn't been written good enough, like say, kevin keller, for this to matter.)

    He has been treated as a background character so far.

    Marvel seems to forget he is a proud canadian, he has a twin sister and I can't remember what his job was (stylist ?). Bringing him to the x-men was not improvement since it is such a team book that very little characters can sustain a solo series. (Those who can are often mercenaries who have a job and a life outside of the team or wolverine related.)

    His power are complicated to use in a team book (he is a walking deus ex machina, much like Flash) and his attitude can't work in a team group. (Alpha flight was more an official team so he was employed and people had more legitimate reason to put up with him.)

    So to fix him and make him popular in 5 easy steps :

    1. Make a compelling private life, a supporting husband, a job outside of heroics and more of a street based hero in his own city (for now).
    2. Bring back his sister and let them be paired. They can be both at their best with each other.
    3. Create a rogue gallery. Either recycle villains or create new ones.
    4. Use his series to talk about discrimination, pretty much what the x-men are about. He's canadian, married to a black guy, gay, and a mutant. Ding ding ding. You could even have some of his rogue gallery to have prejudice against him personnaly and target him because of that.
    5. Mellow him a bit (like they did with Donna Noble in Doctor Who). Have him be a jerk to ennemies and other heroes but a sweetheart to his husband, family and friends. Have him explained he is used to people being awful with because of who he is and you can easily understand why he is cold at first.


    I'd read this comic book.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    Northstar powers are simliar to other well known super heroes way before him.
    Even Quicksilver that was in the first x-men and avengers stories just had one (IIRC) ongoing comic book.
    After Flash,super heroes with similiar powers are not usually that interesting to read about in comic books outside of team of super heroes comic books.

  8. #53
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    A lot of people are quick to point out that he's known for being part of niche team Alpha Flight, but he's been a member of the X-Men since 2001ish. That's 18 years compared to 21 with Alpha Flight. Granted, he rarely gets much to do as an X-Man, I think the point is still valid.

    As for a rogues gallery, with his circus background its only fitting that the Circus of Crime crosses paths with Northstar. Especially if Pink Pearl is somehow involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    her too. but i think she resides in Bagallia, now.
    That's stopped literally zero villains from interacting with heroes in other comics. Besides, we know she makes a commute since she has her Happy Clams in Canada.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    A lot of people are quick to point out that he's known for being part of niche team Alpha Flight, but he's been a member of the X-Men since 2001ish. That's 18 years compared to 21 with Alpha Flight. Granted, he rarely gets much to do as an X-Man, I think the point is still valid.
    But how many of the X-Men actually break out of the teams and are extremely popular? Popular enough to sustain ongoing comics? Even Iceman was in the 'loser' category until Bendis decided to make a big push for Bobby. Iceman has been around forever, was more popular than NorthStar even before Bendis worked on him, and still Iceman failed to be mainstream in Marvel before he came out.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    *Off to add Quicksilver to my list of characters who should’ve always been gay.*
    He always was...Marvel just did not have the guts to say so.

    I would say he is not popular because he is a bit of a jerk most of the time.

  11. #56
    Mighty Member pageturner's Avatar
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    He has mostly been on a c list team and he is not stationed in NYC (that seem to matter I cannot explain why)

    IDK if there is a groundswell of demand for him (IDK that there is not either i suppose only Marvel know for sure) but the squeaky wheel gets oiled. If there is enough demand not here but demand marvel sees, then he might get some chances.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Northstar powers are simliar to other well known super heroes way before him.
    Even Quicksilver that was in the first x-men and avengers stories just had one (IIRC) ongoing comic book.
    After Flash,super heroes with similiar powers are not usually that interesting to read about in comic books outside of team of super heroes comic books.
    This...and pretty much only this

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    *Off to add Quicksilver to my list of characters who should’ve always been gay.*
    If Marvel was half as progressive as they like to think, Pietro would have come out as bisexual years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    Cowardice. Or, more diplomatically, lack of follow-through.

    Northstar's early history is roughly a decade of writers trying to get around the fact that they weren't allowed to say the character was gay, and then once it was allowed to be explicitly put in print, it was treated as an endpoint. Northstar says he's gay, then it's mentioned only once more in the Alpha Flight series, and it's his sister being homophobic (again). There's no love interest, no further revelation, no emotional fallout from the death of his daughter, no development. Just "I'm gay", and that's it.

    His miniseries? Utterly forgettable toothless 90's twaddle, more veiled homophobia, and no direct mention of his sexuality.

    Alpha Flight volume 2? Northstar tries to commit suicide, for no reason ever elaborated on. Because that's what gay people do, apparently. We have a "born that way" PSA, then it all goes under the rug as the writer concentrates on characters he actually gives a shit about.

    Then pretty much nothing until Northstar joins the X-Men almost another decade later, where the notable high points are a mentorship to Anole that takes place entirely off-screen (and a role that's ultimately taken out of Northstar's hands and given to a straight character), Mark Millar killing him off in a storyline where he has zero agency, Mike Carey cleaning up Millar's mess in a story where Northstar is mostly a quest object, and, finally, his wedding, which if you're keeping track, is the only just about the only storyline since the 1990's where he was 1) central to the plot, 2) written remotely in character and 3) was treated as a full-fledged character in his own right before we hit The X-Tremists this year.*

    Northstar's more a footnote than an icon because Marvel took all of their early missteps with regards to LGBTQ rep with him. Because Marvel thought having a character show up and say "I'm gay!" once every ten years counted as decent representation. Because writers don't know how to handle a gay character who's unapologetically disinterested in making people comfortable, and so flatten him into a bitchy gay stereotype, if they even know anything about him other than his being "the gay one". And when he finally got spotlight with a writer who did quite a good job with him overall, once again there was absolutely no follow-up about what any of it meant to him as a character.

    Northstar's a character who gets used intermittently, is challenging to write, has a history of being used poorly when he does turn up, and then immediately gets put aside for bigger names on a regular basis. Meanwhile, Bobby's a founding member of the X-Men, he's likable, relatable, funny, sympathetic, has appeared in just about every X-Men media adaptation, and had his coming out at a time when there was a lot more awareness wrt the portrayal of minority characters. It's really not much of a contest.

    *(And no, I'm not forgetting Amazing X-Men #13. I enjoyed it a lot, but, ultimately, Northstar was a prop.)
    I think this is it exactly.
    Last edited by teapartyofthedead; 07-27-2019 at 07:43 PM.

  14. #59
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Northstar just hasn't been pushed enough and Marvel comics don't really seem to have that on their agenda at the moment. I think its great people are starting to call this out. He doesn't have the exposure nor is he the pop culture icon the others are. If he was a key feature in a critically acclaimed comic or tv show or cartoon then maybe, but I don't think you put the cart before the horse. Marvel's kinda got to take steps to make it so and they haven't been. They need to push the character more so he can work his way into cartoons, live-action movies and tv.

    On the LGBTQ front, Miss America seems better positioned then Northstar right now. She's had a solo comic and is a lead in one of the Disney XD cartoons.

    BP was years in the making and also he's not alone. There was Blade before him, and we see shows like Luke Cage, Black Lightning and dozens of other superhero and comic-based shows if you look back. BP is just a watershed moment because of the budget and the predominantly black cast, then you just check the boxes of it being a really good movie and a Marvel movie. Wonder Woman came in at the right time and was an icon for years that had been built up. TV shows, cartoons, merchandise, etc. There have also been a number of superheroines before her and after her hit movie. Not all were successful but they will continue to be made.

    Has there been an openly gay male superhero lead in a mainstream show or movie? I'm sure there will be but there hasn't been one yet to my knowledge. I can think of numerous side and supporting characters.

    Comic wise when I think of well known gay male superheroes I think of Midnighter, Northstar, Wiccan, and Hulkling. I'm sure there are many more (hopefully) but that's just off the top of my head. Technically, Deadpool, Loki, and Iceman have been portrayed as gay or bisexual if I'm not mistaken but we've never seen that portrayed by any of the live-action versions.

    I saw you brought up Cyborg earlier and with Cyborg he was an original creation that didn't fall into too many stereotypes at the time. DC executives have been a fan of him since they put him on the Justice League in Galactic Guardians. Then between the original New Teen Titans runs and the hit cartoons he's had some notoriety. However, even though DC's been pushing Cyborg as a Justice Leaguer since 2011 I don't think it's been that effective. They wanted to position him for the inevitable Justice League movie, but in actuality, DC did a really bad job of pushing him. Outside of a few appearances and his short******d solo titles they didn't do much with the character. Half the time he was getting hacked or ripped to shreds or backgrounded. He's a character with so much potential but no one at DC has really taken the time to push him forward correctly. His solo writers tried so I'll give them credit, but outside of Walker, Semper, Reis and some other artists, it's been an underwhelming 8 years. Still he's more well known then Northstar and at least DC's been throwing him in stuff, but I think their approach is problematic and that DC is kind of a mess right now.
    Last edited by Jabare; 07-27-2019 at 09:08 PM.
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  15. #60
    Spectacular Member Dark-Jacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    Northstar just hasn't been pushed enough and Marvel comics don't really seem to have that on their agenda at the moment. I think its great people are starting to call this out. He doesn't have the exposure nor is he the pop culture icon the others are. If he was a key feature in a critically acclaimed comic or tv show or cartoon then maybe, but I don't think you put the cart before the horse. Marvel's kinda got to take steps to make it so and they haven't been. They need to push the character more so he can work his way into cartoons, live-action movies and tv.

    On the LGBTQ front, Miss America seems better positioned then Northstar right now. She's had a solo comic and is a lead in one of the Disney XD cartoons.

    BP was years in the making and also he's not alone. There was Blade before him, and we see shows like Luke Cage, Black Lightning and dozens of other superhero and comic-based shows if you look back. BP is just a watershed moment because of the budget and the predominantly black cast, then you just check the boxes of it being a really good movie and a Marvel movie. Wonder Woman came in at the right time and was an icon for years that had been built up. TV shows, cartoons, merchandise, etc. There have also been a number of superheroines before her and after her hit movie. Not all were successful but they will continue to be made.

    Has there been an openly gay male superhero lead in a mainstream show or movie? I'm sure there will be but there hasn't been one yet to my knowledge. I can think of numerous side and supporting characters.

    Comic wise when I think of well known gay male superheroes I think of Midnighter, Northstar, Wiccan, and Hulkling. I'm sure there are many more (hopefully) but that's just off the top of my head. Technically, Deadpool, Loki, and Iceman have been portrayed as gay or bisexual if I'm not mistaken but we've never seen that portrayed by any of the live-action versions.

    I saw you brought up Cyborg earlier and with Cyborg he was an original creation that didn't fall into too many stereotypes at the time. DC executives have been a fan of him since they put him on the Justice League in Galactic Guardians. Then between the original New Teen Titans runs and the hit cartoons he's had some notoriety. However, even though DC's been pushing Cyborg as a Justice Leaguer since 2011 I don't think it's been that effective. They wanted to position him for the inevitable Justice League movie, but in actuality, DC did a really bad job of pushing him. Outside of a few appearances and his short******d solo titles they didn't do much with the character. Half the time he was getting hacked or ripped to shreds or backgrounded. He's a character with so much potential but no one at DC has really taken the time to push him forward correctly. His solo writers tried so I'll give them credit, but outside of Walker, Semper, Reis and some other artists, it's been an underwhelming 8 years. Still he's more well known then Northstar and at least DC's been throwing him in stuff, but I think their approach is problematic and that DC is kind of a mess right now.

    I agree with what you say. Fine analysis. ^^

    But, Deadpool was totally queer in Deadpool 2.

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