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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermie View Post
    It might also have something to do with the fact that the situation ended up becoming a lot more complicated than that, and Johnny and Lyja getting involved for real after her deception was finally exposed.

    It doesn't make how the whole thing started any less creepy or wrong, but it does mean that Johnny has moved past the whole rape/violation aspect of it and his history with her is about more than just that now.
    The writers tried to make it an actual romance, but Onslaught and Heroes Reborn happened before it could be done (thankfully). So he never really forgave her and her actions should never be excused.
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  2. #17
    Incredible Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    The writers tried to make it an actual romance, but Onslaught and Heroes Reborn happened before it could be done (thankfully). So he never really forgave her and her actions should never be excused.
    Fans grew to like Lyja though. Last we saw of her, she stayed in the Negative Zone.

    I like to think her and Crusader meet up and use his ring to turn them human permanently.

  3. #18
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermie View Post
    It might also have something to do with the fact that the situation ended up becoming a lot more complicated than that, and Johnny and Lyja getting involved for real after her deception was finally exposed.

    It doesn't make how the whole thing started any less creepy or wrong, but it does mean that Johnny has moved past the whole rape/violation aspect of it and his history with her is about more than just that now.
    A couple of things about the Lyja situation. A similar situation happened in Legion of Super-Heroes where a Durlan imposter acted as Shrinking Violet and got involved with Colossal Boy. They also stayed together after the subterfuges was exposed. That turn seemed more natural (less creepy) because of actual intent and political alliances. Johnny and Lyja never hit me as a good thing. The origin considering the Medusa thing, maybe Johnny is an a-hole. But making her a Skrull imposter, IMO, was a way to lessen the ewww factor and give some acceptability to the pairing.

    All in all, I am NOT one of the fans who's taken to Lyja. If she were to fade into limbo, I'd miss absolutely nothing.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    Fans grew to like Lyja though. Last we saw of her, she stayed in the Negative Zone.

    I like to think her and Crusader meet up and use his ring to turn them human permanently.
    Fans like villains all the time. Lyja is a villain and the way Marvel has tried to play down the severity of what she did is messed up. Whenever she is listed as one of Johnny’s romances I roll my eyes. In the same very run the same thing happened to Namor with a shapeshifter pretending to be Sue. It was treated properly as the violation it was, but Johnny’s was not and that’s messed up.

    If Lyja ever returns it should be as the villain she is.
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  5. #20
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Art's on point. I don't know why I thought the back-to-human thing only lasted one day. There must've been a mix up back in the day.
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  6. #21
    Mighty Member KangMiRae's Avatar
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    Nah, I liked the Lyja grief. It was interesting and made a for a good “romance from pain” story.
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  7. #22
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    The only time Lyja was well handled was in MC2. Geez, it's almost as if I'm a fan of MC2?

    Also, her cameo in Marvel Age Power Pack was hilarious.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Fans like villains all the time. Lyja is a villain and the way Marvel has tried to play down the severity of what she did is messed up. Whenever she is listed as one of Johnny’s romances I roll my eyes. In the same very run the same thing happened to Namor with a shapeshifter pretending to be Sue. It was treated properly as the violation it was, but Johnny’s was not and that’s messed up.

    If Lyja ever returns it should be as the villain she is.
    I don't know... I have a hard time seeing it that way since the romance between Johnny and Lyja was established as a relationship between Johnny and Alicia long before they decided to do the whole skrull thing.

    I mean, John Byrne set up the relationship to create the conflict between Ben and Johnny, but I'm positive it was never intended to be a fake out with the Lyja reveal.

    For a later creator to come in and say she was a skrull deceiving him the whole time turns what was just a standard comic romance for years into something ugly is more the fault of the creative team than it is a reason to hate the characters.

    If anything, their failure in turning Lyja into a more sympathetic character was to make her conscious of and complicit in the deception. A simple explanation of her being programmed to believe she was the real Alicia would have absolved her of any culpability in the deception.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAS View Post
    I don't know... I have a hard time seeing it that way since the romance between Johnny and Lyja was established as a relationship between Johnny and Alicia long before they decided to do the whole skrull thing.

    I mean, John Byrne set up the relationship to create the conflict between Ben and Johnny, but I'm positive it was never intended to be a fake out with the Lyja reveal.

    For a later creator to come in and say she was a skrull deceiving him the whole time turns what was just a standard comic romance for years into something ugly is more the fault of the creative team than it is a reason to hate the characters.

    If anything, their failure in turning Lyja into a more sympathetic character was to make her conscious of and complicit in the deception. A simple explanation of her being programmed to believe she was the real Alicia would have absolved her of any culpability in the deception.
    She may be a result of a retcon to the terrible Alicia/Johnny story, but the way they did it made her a horrible person who never had to face consequences for their actions. She raped Johnny, then later she pretended he got her pregnant when it was actually a weapon to kill him and his family, and the last time she appeared was during Secret Invasion where she pretended to be Sue and tried to kill everyone again.

    Her actions towards Johnny are villainous and should be treated as such.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Ah, so there's precedent. Thanks for clearing that up. I must read Hickman's Fantastic Four at some point, I'm a fan of his work otherwise.
    You really need to read it, it's for me the best Fantastic Four story. And even if you don't like it the concepts are so outlandish and new for a FF story, that you will at least find it interesting.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    The writers tried to make it an actual romance, but Onslaught and Heroes Reborn happened before it could be done (thankfully). So he never really forgave her and her actions should never be excused.
    That's not quite true, actually. Johnny had forgiven her, at least enough for them to try at a real relationship. That got derailed when the whole "fake baby" thing got revealed, but Johnny had begun pursuing a real relationship with Lyja up to that point.

    Even after that, his feelings for her have been mixed. There has been, of course, a lot of hurt and anger over the various deceptions. But he has also still had feelings for her. After the FF returned from Counter-Earth in the "Heroes Return" period, Johnny made reference to missing Lyja and having looked for her but not being able to find her.

    (and then there's the MC2 continuity of SPIDER-GIRL and FANTASTIC FIVE, etc, where he and Lyja eventually remarried and had a family of their own - but that's an alternate possible future so it doesn't necessarily apply)

  12. #27
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Didn't Robinson retcon in that he was looking for her during the Hickman run?

  13. #28
    Incredible Member The BaRoN's Avatar
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    The art looks great but we need an official regular artist on this

    Medina is back after the hulk 2 part issues.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by The BaRoN View Post
    The art looks great but we need an official regular artist on this

    Medina is back after the hulk 2 part issues.
    The preview pages look great! This should be the artist on the Fantastic Four!

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by beetee View Post
    The preview pages look great! This should be the artist on the Fantastic Four!
    I agree. This is the type of aesthetic I would like for the Fantastic Four to have.

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