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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Also, in one way DC is way too respectful to the character: they don't want to rock the boat.
    With a few recent and rare instances, I entirely agree with you.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Paradise Island is closed to Men and the Outside World, largely. To pretend that because they hadn't a wall or something for most of their history doesn't make them isolationists is disingenuous; they are isolationists. And sexists, no matter how Marston and those who wrote Wonder Woman after him tried to pretend. They reduce men and women to some "essential" elements which defines if one is good or evil. If you stand for what they call "Men World's" (which is in truth Toxic Masculinity and not the world of just Men, if I'm clear on the difference here) you're evil; if not you're good. Writers also almost always conflated the Monotheistic God's inherent misogyny with Zeus' when it makes no sense to spat on him and his Pantheon that way : Athena, Hera, Aphrodite and Artemis, to name a few, offered far more to women than God ever did, even if Athenians were far from gender equals indeed.

    Because of this, characters like Cassie, tied to the mythological elements of the Wonder Woman mythos are not very connected to the Amazons themselves. Donna is a mess and has been for so long that at this point, short of just embracing it, I don't know how it could be solved. And Artemis has mostly been used outside of the Wonder books since she returned and so far, her best and most defining relationships are with Rebirth Akila, Jason Todd and Bizarro, the latter two of which works so well with her that it's mind-blowing, IMHO. And while I don't doubt they can write a lot of stories with her and Diana, I don't really see her able to support a solo spin-off title. Her being "subservient" to Diana wouldn't work.

    As for a male character coming from Themyscira being not needed nor wanted, I'm pretty sure the same thing was said in reverse for characters like Batgirl, Spoiler, Orphan, Batwoman or Supergirl. They were wrong, of course.
    Even in the Marston comics, the Amazons never outright said that men were evil. He had backwards thinking in that he thought men were naturally inferior to women which is not true feminism, but they were not bad and men would be better off submitting to the loving rule of women. Marston even undermines himself a bit because Diana still wants to leave the island and live among everyone outside of it and he uses mostly female villains, so the women = good/men = bad thing is pretty murky. And later writers with more progressive ideas moved further away from that.

    You frequently bring up the Amazons being isolationist, but you always ignore the reasons why the left: they tried to interact with the rest of the world, and had their reputations slandered, their home destroyed and were enslaved and raped. Their negative attitude towards men is understandable, and the island is essentially their safe space, one which they are in no way obligated to allow men to enter. As men are generally at the top of the food chain everywhere else, and what they need to do to heal is their own business. Even then, Diana encourages them to interact with the outside world again when they are ready, it would be wrong to force rape victims to action if they don't want to. And even the Bana Amazons, who are way more isolationist and man hating, have troubling aspects but were at least given more nuance by Perez and Jimenez than Azzarello ever managed in his run. The latter just did one note caricatures and instilled more sexism in the narrative than Marston ever did, who has the excuse of being a radical weirdo in the 1940s. Modern day writing should be better than that, but it fell short overall to something from the 1940s.

    False equivalency with the female characters of other franchises. Those are male driven franchises with predominantly male fans in a predominantly male driven industry. Those characters are gateways for a female audience, but they are not the majority. Wonder Woman is the one major franchise that is mostly women, it is unique. The fans who are bothered by there not being many men in it when they have a boatload of other franchises to be represented in are frankly not worth catering to. It's like demanding some male Sailor soldiers or for She-Ra to have some princes with the titular Princesses of Power. it misses the point.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Also, in one way DC is way too respectful to the character: they don't want to rock the boat. And in G Willow Wilson's words, "our instincts as writers is just to pile on gravitas". There are very few writers who have managed to connect back to Marston's sassy and quipping Diana.
    I feel like rocking the boat is all DC does with Diana. They've stripped her off her powers, killed her twice, nearly wiped out the Amazons on numerous occasions, used the Amazons as antagonists on numerous occasions, altered the circumstances of her birth and turned her original sidekick into a villain.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Writers also almost always conflated the Monotheistic God's inherent misogyny with Zeus' when it makes no sense to spat on him and his Pantheon that way : Athena, Hera, Aphrodite and Artemis, to name a few, offered far more to women than God ever did, even if Athenians were far from gender equals indeed.
    The pantheon that frequently engaged in the murder, rape, torture and victim blaming of women? Seriously, forget Wonder Woman, do you actually know anything about the Greek gods? Hell, Azzarello, whose praises you frequently sing, showed how terribly the Olympians, male and female alike treated women.

    Because of this, characters like Cassie, tied to the mythological elements of the Wonder Woman mythos are not very connected to the Amazons themselves.
    That has only been an issue with the New 52/Rebirth. Prior to that Cassie was as much an Amazon as she was a demigod if not more so.


    Donna is a mess and has been for so long that at this point, short of just embracing it, I don't know how it could be solved. And Artemis has mostly been used outside of the Wonder books since she returned and so far, her best and most defining relationships are with Rebirth Akila, Jason Todd and Bizarro, the latter two of which works so well with her that it's mind-blowing, IMHO. And while I don't doubt they can write a lot of stories with her and Diana, I don't really see her able to support a solo spin-off title. Her being "subservient" to Diana wouldn't work.
    Seeing as how no one is asking of her to be subservient to Diana and her not being subservient to Diana is one of the reasons people like her, I’m not sure why you’re bringing that up. And we can hardly judge if she can carry a solo when DC has never given her the chance.
    Though I do find it interesting that you say her relationship with two male characters is given more development than one with a female character who was supposedly her childhood friend. Which really is all you need to know about how DC prioritizes women, especially women in the WW franchise.

    As for a male character coming from Themyscira being not needed nor wanted, I'm pretty sure the same thing was said in reverse for characters like Batgirl, Spoiler, Orphan, Batwoman or Supergirl. They were wrong, of course.
    They gave us a male character from Themyscira in the previous run. He went over with the audience like a lead balloon. Those characters you listed were created because there actually was a demand for them and they have been critical and/or financial successes for DC. Jason not so much.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The pantheon that frequently engaged in the murder, rape, torture and victim blaming of women? Seriously, forget Wonder Woman, do you actually know anything about the Greek gods? Hell, Azzarello, whose praises you frequently sing, showed how terribly the Olympians, male and female alike treated women.
    Ha ! i'm pretty sure I know more than you on that subject.

    But I see that Wonder fans and me won't ever see eye to eye. More power to you, more tranquility of mind for me. I just hope you'll finally great stories which will keep hiding away all that is sexist and isolationist in Wonder Woman but is okay because the characters supporting it are women.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Ha ! i'm pretty sure I know more than you on that subject.

    But I see that Wonder fans and me won't ever see eye to eye. More power to you, more tranquility of mind for me. I just hope you'll finally great stories which will keep hiding away all that is sexist and isolationist in Wonder Woman but is okay because the characters supporting it are women.
    As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, there are stories that explore the nuances of this, but you ignore them or miss the point.
    Azzarello meanwhile is more sexist than any of the others. he didn't do anything other writers hadn't done better, and actively made things worse.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, there are stories that explore the nuances of this, but you ignore them or miss the point.
    Azzarello meanwhile is more sexist than any of the others. he didn't do anything other writers hadn't done better, and actively made things worse.
    He took the bare bones of what Amazons are said to be : isolationists warrior women who refuses entry to men on their island and depicted them as they would have been in the real world. it's a lot less sexist in my book than pass over it because "it's okay, women are victimized by men in the real world". The latter being absolutely true doesn't make the former okay, no matter how americans believe in "safe places" and other "ethnically non-diverse" spaces needed to rebuild oneself or whatever. I'm an universalist, I don't buy into those being necessary beyond a temporary reprieve.

  8. #23
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    He took the bare bones of what Amazons are said to be : isolationists warrior women who refuses entry to men on their island and depicted them as they would have been in the real world. it's a lot less sexist in my book than pass over it because "it's okay, women are victimized by men in the real world". The latter being absolutely true doesn't make the former okay, no matter how americans believe in "safe places" and other "ethnically non-diverse" spaces needed to rebuild oneself or whatever. I'm an universalist, I don't buy into those being necessary beyond a temporary reprieve.
    I respectfully beg to differ.

    Isolationist doesn't equal backwards.

    Staying away from men doesn't mean that all Amazons hate all men.

    Wanting to be left alone doesn't mean they all want to murder anyone who makes their way to the island.

    Azzarello took all of these possible aspects and cranked them up to 11.

    At the same time, he took an isolationist male society (the Manazons) and turned them into artists, crafters and peace lovers as if to prove that men can do it right, but women end up sexist/isolationist/militaristic/murderous.

    Not only is that not 'how they would end up in the real world,' but it's also *not* why I read comics. Superman, if he were in the real world, would have most likely accidentally killed his parents, hurt a lot of people and gone on to follow either the 'Bright Burn' path or the 'The Boys' path.

    Batman? He's a physical impossibility - he is every man's fantasy; a hunky, wealthy playboy, detective, bullet-proof master-of-every-martial-art, owner of every cool toy, genius programmer and chemist and forensic pathologist. In reality? A ten year old kid whose parents are murdered in front of him would have spent a lifetime in therapy trying to recover from severe PTSD.

    The point is, we don't read comics for 'the most realistic probability' but for 'the most enjoyable fantasies.' To force 'reality' upon the lead female of comicdom while continuing to write the ultimate male fantasies in 'the most powerful male with the perfect wife who can do anything' and 'the ultimate every man out thinks and out fights the world' is just wrong on so many levels.

    Wonder Woman's core story is that women were abused and beaten by men and retreat from the world where they build a society that is based on peace and love. They raise a child to believe in their values (like Clark was raised to believe in the Kents values), and that child voluntarily leaves a beautiful (not perfect!) world behind in order to try to help the women *and men* of the outside world.

    Azzarello took that, ground it into the mud, made Diana leave out of rebellion, made her mother an adulterer who didn't set out to create a child but instead ended up with an accidental pregnancy, made her sisters into caricatures of how men think they would have to be like if they didn't have them around and generally spat on everything that made Wonder Woman who she was.

    Pass, thank you very much.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I respectfully beg to differ.

    Isolationist doesn't equal backwards.

    Staying away from men doesn't mean that all Amazons hate all men.

    Wanting to be left alone doesn't mean they all want to murder anyone who makes their way to the island.

    Azzarello took all of these possible aspects and cranked them up to 11.

    At the same time, he took an isolationist male society (the Manazons) and turned them into artists, crafters and peace lovers as if to prove that men can do it right, but women end up sexist/isolationist/militaristic/murderous.

    Not only is that not 'how they would end up in the real world,' but it's also *not* why I read comics. Superman, if he were in the real world, would have most likely accidentally killed his parents, hurt a lot of people and gone on to follow either the 'Bright Burn' path or the 'The Boys' path.

    Batman? He's a physical impossibility - he is every man's fantasy; a hunky, wealthy playboy, detective, bullet-proof master-of-every-martial-art, owner of every cool toy, genius programmer and chemist and forensic pathologist. In reality? A ten year old kid whose parents are murdered in front of him would have spent a lifetime in therapy trying to recover from severe PTSD.

    The point is, we don't read comics for 'the most realistic probability' but for 'the most enjoyable fantasies.' To force 'reality' upon the lead female of comicdom while continuing to write the ultimate male fantasies in 'the most powerful male with the perfect wife who can do anything' and 'the ultimate every man out thinks and out fights the world' is just wrong on so many levels.
    To be fair both of those two have been deconstructed in recent years rather heavily. But I agree that this obsession with “realism” is misplaced. Stories don’t have to obsessively adhere to “reality” and I don’t see the problem with portraying Themyscaria as a utopia or the Amazons as enlightened.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Paradise Island is closed to Men and the Outside World, largely. To pretend that because they hadn't a wall or something for most of their history doesn't make them isolationists is disingenuous; they are isolationists. And sexists, no matter how Marston and those who wrote Wonder Woman after him tried to pretend. They reduce men and women to some "essential" elements which defines if one is good or evil. If you stand for what they call "Men World's" (which is in truth Toxic Masculinity and not the world of just Men, if I'm clear on the difference here) you're evil; if not you're good. Writers also almost always conflated the Monotheistic God's inherent misogyny with Zeus' when it makes no sense to spat on him and his Pantheon that way : Athena, Hera, Aphrodite and Artemis, to name a few, offered far more to women than God ever did, even if Athenians were far from gender equals indeed.

    Because of this, characters like Cassie, tied to the mythological elements of the Wonder Woman mythos are not very connected to the Amazons themselves. Donna is a mess and has been for so long that at this point, short of just embracing it, I don't know how it could be solved. And Artemis has mostly been used outside of the Wonder books since she returned and so far, her best and most defining relationships are with Rebirth Akila, Jason Todd and Bizarro, the latter two of which works so well with her that it's mind-blowing, IMHO. And while I don't doubt they can write a lot of stories with her and Diana, I don't really see her able to support a solo spin-off title. Her being "subservient" to Diana wouldn't work.

    As for a male character coming from Themyscira being not needed nor wanted, I'm pretty sure the same thing was said in reverse for characters like Batgirl, Spoiler, Orphan, Batwoman or Supergirl. They were wrong, of course.
    ZEUS is not a misogynist? The guy who runs around raping whatever woman he fancies but severely punished his wife any time she does anything that displeases him? I can’t agree with that at all. Greek Civilization was severely misogynistic and Zeus was no exception there.

  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    He took the bare bones of what Amazons are said to be : isolationists warrior women who refuses entry to men on their island and depicted them as they would have been in the real world. it's a lot less sexist in my book than pass over it because "it's okay, women are victimized by men in the real world". The latter being absolutely true doesn't make the former okay, no matter how americans believe in "safe places" and other "ethnically non-diverse" spaces needed to rebuild oneself or whatever. I'm an universalist, I don't buy into those being necessary beyond a temporary reprieve.
    As others have mentioned, bringing up the real world is pretty pointless when it comes to superheroes. We are already dealing with immortals and Greek gods.

    Steve and other men like him who end up on the island are healed and escorted home. They have homes to go back to. The Amazons are not obligated to do more than that, yet many versions still gradually decide to reach back out to the outside world. It is a relative temporary reprieve, from a narrative perspective, just stretched out for their extremely long lifespans. Diana's Amazons have not historically victimized men until Azzarello wrote them that way, and he didn't even delve into the reasons for their attitude, yet showed the isolationist all male society as being more gentle and creative. He also wrote the Amazons as being cartoonish caricatures who threatened a man's penis every time they saw one. In no way is that an improvement, nuance or realistic. The WW comic has also rarely, if ever, said it's ok to victimize men over women. Wonder Woman protects everyone, including men threatened by her female villains.

    And Zeus is many things, some of them positive for a God, but he is also a raging misogynist. I don't know how anyone can even have a casual grasp on the myths and not see that.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I feel like rocking the boat is all DC does with Diana. They've stripped her off her powers, killed her twice, nearly wiped out the Amazons on numerous occasions, used the Amazons as antagonists on numerous occasions, altered the circumstances of her birth and turned her original sidekick into a villain.
    Nearly every superhero has been killed at one point or another, including Batman and Superman…

    When I said "rock the boat" I was calling back to Christopher Priest's essay on his time writing Wonder Woman, and I believe that statement is true, but from a specific viewpoint: that of marketing, and then most especially of merchandising.

    You can switch around the Amazons any which way you like, but that won't change who Diana is. The mod era was essentially a failed experiment, but it was also 50 years ago, before the rise of the merchandising beast.

    What is missing is however the type of stories that dig into Diana's character and ideology: how does she view this world, what are her values deep-down, how do those interact with the world around her? How does a person who most definitely is free from our views of sexuality and gender, and most probably also on class, perceive and act in Man's World? The only story that I think really took that at its core is The Hiketeia.

    And guess what, if Diana's ideology is taken seriously, then you no longer need to pile on the gravitas for her as a person. Because the original Diana was sassy, earthy, and very aware of the pop culture of her time, arguably the opposite of how she usually is written today.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    I think some of the people writing the comics may have been trying too hard to have DC's Amazons imitate the mythical Amazons. They were... not nice. Most of the bad cultural traits ascribed to Amazons in the comics were derived from mythology.

  14. #29
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    First, entrenched misogyny within the comics industry (on all levels).
    Quite the statement. What solution would you suggest the comics industry would have to go through to solve this problem?

  15. #30
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    I really think DC had been too careful with the character. She needs to show her "beautiful woman" side(which had attracted ppl in the first place) and they need to open up with the villain writing. Adding more members to the JL major team is going to make her easier to write rather than stay as the token member.

    Also I think a love-hate relationship with a powerful charming villain would have helped a lot.

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