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  1. #1
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    Default So, if no Hickman, what should be done with the Titans?

    So, I know a lot of us got excited that Hickman said he wanted to write the Titans if he ever came to DC, but since he's under an exclusive deal with Marvel writing X-Men, that's not happening anytime soon. So...what should be done to help save the Titans? What story ideas, team shake-ups, and directions should be implemented?

    Here are my ideas

    Step 1: Recanonize 100% of the Pre-Flashpoint Titans Canon.

    I'm sorry to sound like a broken record on this, but a team without a history is a team without any real promise of a future. Do you know what made House of X so good? Hickman was able to draw on the lore and the history of the X-Men to create a new environment and new status quo for them. So, without that lore that once meant something to the Titans, the franchise is just spinning its wheels.

    Step 2: Create a New Status Quo and Give the Team a Mission.

    As stated above, Hickman's X-Men is paving the way to an exciting new status quo, but one that is grounded in familiar elements. Do the same for the Titans. Maybe spinning out of Event Leviathan, we see Nightwing come back (finally done with all the Ric business) and he decides to use his resources and those of others to relaunch the team in a new iteration. Give them a mission similar to that of the team on the Young Justice TV show: to safeguard and ensure the development of minor metahumans.

    Give the team a semi-large roster, filled with all sorts of characters from the team's past who want to sign on with Dick's new mission. I'm not just talking Cyborg and Starfire and Raven and Beast Boy, but let's see Wildebeest, Pantha, Hawk and Dove, Red Star, Argent, even Phantasm coming out of the woodwork. I'd also like to see Donna, Wally, and Roy coming back.

    Give them a new base of operations, like how Hickman is doing for the X-Men or how Bendis did for Superman. Maybe a new Titans Tower, but this time, not in New York or San Francisco or anywhere it was before.

    I don't know the details right now, but believe me, I might come up with something and pitch it to DC myself if I have to.

    Step 3: Make Sure a Talented Writer Helms It.

    Since Hickman can't do it, let's give it to someone who both loves these characters and is a proven writer. Jeff Lemire or Mark Russell or Sam Humphries could be excellent options just off the top of my head. Or heck, even Scott Snyder once he wraps up Justice League. Also, what's Charles Soule up to? If he's not still under exclusive at Marvel, then he could maybe come back to DC and do this.

    Step 4: Keep it Out of the Purview of Certain Parts of Editorial.

    Hopefully, this could be something kept out of the purview of editors that don't really understand the Titans.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 07-25-2019 at 09:58 PM.

  2. #2
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    The Titans are pretty much the jobber squad for the next year atleast tbh

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    I honestly don't think anything can be done. I think the Titans is a dead franchise. Characters too old to be doing the same things they did before, but also they can never fully join or step over the Justice League. They are stuck. The books will still sell decent but it will never be a comic that will satisfy people. Too many readers what to see different things. Some want to read about Dick's generation, others want to read about Tim's generation, and some even want to read about Damian's new generation. Some want to see Dick's gen move on from the franchise and change focus to the younger heroes, and others want to see Dick's gen play babysitter and watch over the younger generation. Some want to see them work with the Justice League and others want to see them be completely independent. It is a mess.

    The X-Men have a consistent central theme to all their stories. It is about the Mutans and their struggle, but the Titans don't have a central theme. The closest they have to one is "young heroes teaming up and learning to be heroes together", but as you add more and more older Titans characters you lose that theme I feel. I think the only way for the franchise to have some massive revival is if DC rebooted completely and Dick is Robin again. I think the franchise is in too much of a mess and the story potential is too thin to have a massive revival as things are now.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I honestly don't think anything can be done. I think the Titans is a dead franchise. Characters too old to be doing the same things they did before, but also they can never fully join or step over the Justice League. They are stuck. The books will still sell decent but it will never be a comic that will satisfy people. Too many readers what to see different things. Some want to read about Dick's generation, others want to read about Tim's generation, and some even want to read about Damian's new generation. Some want to see Dick's gen move on from the franchise and change focus to the younger heroes, and others want to see Dick's gen play babysitter and watch over the younger generation. Some want to see them work with the Justice League and others want to see them be completely independent. It is a mess.

    The X-Men have a consistent central theme to all their stories. It is about the Mutans and their struggle, but the Titans don't have a central theme. The closest they have to one is "young heroes teaming up and learning to be heroes together", but as you add more and more older Titans characters you lose that theme I feel. I think the only way for the franchise to have some massive revival is if DC rebooted completely and Dick is Robin again. I think the franchise is in too much of a mess and the story potential is too thin to have a massive revival as things are now.
    ... I agree with this. fully.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I honestly don't think anything can be done. I think the Titans is a dead franchise. Characters too old to be doing the same things they did before, but also they can never fully join or step over the Justice League. They are stuck. The books will still sell decent but it will never be a comic that will satisfy people. Too many readers what to see different things. Some want to read about Dick's generation, others want to read about Tim's generation, and some even want to read about Damian's new generation. Some want to see Dick's gen move on from the franchise and change focus to the younger heroes, and others want to see Dick's gen play babysitter and watch over the younger generation. Some want to see them work with the Justice League and others want to see them be completely independent. It is a mess.

    The X-Men have a consistent central theme to all their stories. It is about the Mutans and their struggle, but the Titans don't have a central theme. The closest they have to one is "young heroes teaming up and learning to be heroes together", but as you add more and more older Titans characters you lose that theme I feel. I think the only way for the franchise to have some massive revival is if DC rebooted completely and Dick is Robin again. I think the franchise is in too much of a mess and the story potential is too thin to have a massive revival as things are now.
    A dead franchise doesn't have two currently successful t.v. shows and one upcoming animated film that people are looking forward to.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A dead franchise doesn't have two currently successful t.v. shows and one upcoming animated film that people are looking forward to.
    And how many of those are actually new stories ?

    I like the Titan tv shows but lest be honest : it's retreading the same ground as every Titan story since NTT. As for Young Justice, it is certainly large and bold, and steeped into Titan mythos. But it's often at the cost of older heroes. The Justice League is basically absent from the show and even former members such as Kaldur (Aquaman II) aren't exactly at the forefront nowadays.

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Step 1: Recanonize 100% of the Pre-Flashpoint Titans Canon.

    I'm sorry to sound like a broken record on this, but a team without a history is a team without any real promise of a future. Do you know what made House of X so good? Hickman was able to draw on the lore and the history of the X-Men to create a new environment and new status quo for them. So, without that lore that once meant something to the Titans, the franchise is just spinning its wheels.
    I definitely agree with this! Part of Titans' problem is reboots. Crisis messed up Donna's backstory and New 52 messed up everybody's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Step 2: Create a New Status Quo and Give the Team a Mission.

    As stated above, Hickman's X-Men is paving the way to an exciting new status quo, but one that is grounded in familiar elements. Do the same for the Titans. Maybe spinning out of Event Leviathan, we see Nightwing come back (finally done with all the Ric business) and he decides to use his resources and those of others to relaunch the team in a new iteration. Give them a mission similar to that of the team on the Young Justice TV show: to safeguard and ensure the development of minor metahumans.

    Give the team a semi-large roster, filled with all sorts of characters from the team's past who want to sign on with Dick's new mission. I'm not just talking Cyborg and Starfire and Raven and Beast Boy, but let's see Wildebeest, Pantha, Hawk and Dove, Red Star, Argent, even Phantasm coming out of the woodwork. I'd also like to see Donna, Wally, and Roy coming back.
    The first suggestion there sounds not unlike the last Titans series that got cancelled.

    And the second suggestion sounds like Marvel's Champions, which was also just announced to be cancelled.

  8. #8
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    It shouldn't necessarily be about giving readers what they want, but giving them what they didn't know they wanted. Unfortunately DC gets what they give. When you put on mediocre talent that just go through the motions, don't be surprised when you get mediocre results. Its hard to say its dead franchise when its DC that stopped really even trying. When they do things with Titans people still show up. Its just so poorly supported from them. Not too unlike the X-Men these past years when Fox had their rights.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 07-26-2019 at 05:40 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    And how many of those are actually new stories ?

    I like the Titan tv shows but lest be honest : it's retreading the same ground as every Titan story since NTT. As for Young Justice, it is certainly large and bold, and steeped into Titan mythos. But it's often at the cost of older heroes. The Justice League is basically absent from the show and even former members such as Kaldur (Aquaman II) aren't exactly at the forefront nowadays.
    How many adaptations these days are of new stories?

    It's a story focusing on younger heroes. Of course the League won't have much of a role. It's like complaining about the lack of Titans characters in a Justice League show or movie.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A dead franchise doesn't have two currently successful t.v. shows and one upcoming animated film that people are looking forward to.
    Those are different than comics. They are the focus of their universe and the sole property in that universe. They aren't competing against other franchises and properties for importance, but they will never be the focus in the comics over the bigger teams and characters. The comics Titans property is essentially a dead end creatively with how things are now. Did DC promote some important new Titans comic off the back of the live action series? No, they cancelled the book, shot Dick in the head, killed Roy, and tanked Wally's character. This is all the property is worth to DC now.

    And I said the comics will still sell fine because it is a known IP with characters people like, and the other media will do fine as well, but the comics I don't see any path to some massive revival of the franchise. What it is now is what it will continue to be.

  11. #11
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    Completely reimagine everything/everyone and write new stories. Too many characters have been damaged by years of terrible writing decisions and writers seem more interested in rehashing old storylines to do anything original.

  12. #12
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    The first thing that needs to happen is that DC's view of the Titans need to be changed. Until the company sees the team and characters differently there's no hope for anything better. DC has to recognize the fatal flaw that has kept the Titans from meaning anything in thirty years. Wolfman made the Titans popular because they got to grow, evolve, and change (and stood up to the League, doing things that were equally important without asking for permission). You can't freeze them in the NTT shape, not let them grow beyond that, make them subservient to the League, and expect the same kind of success. It's counter intuitive and shows a clear misunderstanding of what made the NTT era work.

    DC also has to decide what the Titans are. Are they a specific group of heroes including Dick Grayson, Wally West, and Donna Troy who have worked together for years, or are the Titans the group young heroes join to get experience, like Damian, Tim, Conner, and Wallace? The Titans shouldn't be both, it splits the focus and audience expectations. It makes the NTT look like they're not growing up when they're sharing the name with kids, and it casts a Wolfman shaped shadow over the new kids that doesn't do them any favors. Pick one, DC!

    Once all that happens? What's the continuity you're working with? I'm a fan of the "it all basically happened" approach. It's the only honest way to write these characters because fans remember, even when the company tells us to pretend some stuff never happened. It all informs how we see the heroes, whether it officially "counts" or not. So let the Titans have their history back, but don't let it be a cage that prevents growth, treat it as the foundation it is and let the Titans grow in new ways (yknow, like Wolfman did back when the Titans meant something).

    I think before you can think about how the Titans work in a modern setting you need to think about the individual characters. They're not 18-22 anymore; no longer in that "figuring out how adulthood works" phase. Now they're mid 20's, in that "young hotshot professional" phase where they've got their sh*t together and are really establishing themselves in a major way; not *quite* at their full potential but really close. So what does that look like for each character? Once you know that you can start thinking about how they all fit together.

    Assuming they still fit together at all. I don't believe there's any reason for the NTT to remain a team at this point. Friends, yes, but a full-time team? Why? Because they like each other? This isn't My Little Pony. So if they're together what's the reason? What's the Titans' MO and purpose for existing?

    So that's what I'd do. Figure out how each NTT hero operates individually and what they do as equals to the League; recognized and respected as being some of the most experienced and capable heroes on earth (most of the Titans were heroes before a lot of other heroes showed up) and then see how (and if) they still fit together as a group. If they don't, then you're left with the youngest generation/s and the Titans' reason for being is pretty clear-cut; they're the training ground for new heroes.

    But I think it all starts with DC looking at the characters and team differently, and letting the NTT take the next step forward in life.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Those are different than comics. They are the focus of their universe and the sole property in that universe. They aren't competing against other franchises and properties for importance, but they will never be the focus in the comics over the bigger teams and characters. The comics Titans property is essentially a dead end creatively with how things are now. Did DC promote some important new Titans comic off the back of the live action series? No, they cancelled the book, shot Dick in the head, killed Roy, and tanked Wally's character. This is all the property is worth to DC now.

    And I said the comics will still sell fine because it is a known IP with characters people like, and the other media will do fine as well, but the comics I don't see any path to some massive revival of the franchise. What it is now is what it will continue to be.
    Dead franchises don't sell fine, they don't have characters people like, and they don't expand into other media with TV shows. For a franchise and IP these are things they strive for, and Titans has it. Problem is there a different thoughts when it comes to the Titans. Parts of DC see Titans as a known IP with characters people like and want to expand on that into other media, other parts see the Titans as a threat and don't want it to actually succeed. Thats the problem. When Fox had the rights to X-Men they had this same problem, but now Marvel has the rights back and X-Men are seeing real support again.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 07-26-2019 at 07:00 AM.

  14. #14
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    Calling Titans a dead franchise is silly. People thought it was a dead franchise when Wolfman and Perez took it over. People thought it was a dead franchise when Johns took it over. All it takes is the right creator with the right direction. Cracking that code is the tricky bit.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Those are different than comics. They are the focus of their universe and the sole property in that universe. They aren't competing against other franchises and properties for importance, but they will never be the focus in the comics over the bigger teams and characters. The comics Titans property is essentially a dead end creatively with how things are now. Did DC promote some important new Titans comic off the back of the live action series? No, they cancelled the book, shot Dick in the head, killed Roy, and tanked Wally's character. This is all the property is worth to DC now.

    And I said the comics will still sell fine because it is a known IP with characters people like, and the other media will do fine as well, but the comics I don't see any path to some massive revival of the franchise. What it is now is what it will continue to be.
    I'm gonna side with Agent Z and Sam on this one. I mean, in the 60s, DC thought Batman was a dead franchise and then the Adam West TV show came along. And heck, some people thought the same thing about the X-Men and Fantastic Four not so long ago. Marvel even killed of both Cyclops and Professor X and sent Reed and Sue away into the multiverse.

    However, I agree with you as well. As things stand now, it would be hard to pull off a revival, hence why I have multiple steps. Though, that's not because people aren't interested in the franchise or because it's beyond saving. Its more so because there are certain people working at DC at the moment that don't want to see the franchise doing well and who have a vendetta against the characters. If those people left DC tomorrow, the Titans would stand a much better chance at a comeback.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 07-26-2019 at 08:34 AM.

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