Black Panther (T'challa) vs. Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew)

[The Drunkard Kid]

Lastly, you need to update your info. Panther is superhuman, not peak human. Check Marvel.com.

In what way is he superhuman, and to what degree?

I mean, technically speaking, Captain America has superhuman stamina due to the Super Soldier Serum, and Wolverine has actual mutant powers that makes him superhuman in numerous ways. It doesn't really give them superhuman stats, except when compared to real life humans (or arguably comic book humans of his size and training level in Logan's case, due to being able to exert more force without damaging himself enough to take himself out of the fight due to healing factor and adamantium bones).

[Omega]

Lastly, you need to update your info. Panther is superhuman, not peak human. Check Marvel.com.

We go by feats here. Period. What wiki's and even Marvel says vs what characters are capable often vastly differ. On CBR, those stats you see on Marvel.com in character bios are absolutely meaningless.

[Pendaran]

Lastly, you need to update your info. Panther is superhuman, not peak human. Check Marvel.com.

This doesn't actually respond to anything anyone has brought up as far as the inconsistency and double standards in your arguments, or the performances showing capacity you're ignoring as far as something even as basic as "here's some punishment Namor has taken". It doesn't particularly respond to that, as requested no less, the feats straight up equivalent to the one you're trumpeting, down to doing functionally the exact same thing are posted, that you then ignore on a basis that in no way resembles the issues people have with the Namor performance, yet for some reason you claim they're the same thing anyway...

But all that aside, we go by claims as backed by in comic performances then weighed for validity here, not pointing to website rankings.

[Pendaran]

You know, sometimes people are all "why do you guys try to have some kind of structure for your nerd debates as far as standards of evidence and what not" and then threads like these happen as far as answering that one.

[Pendaran]

Just while we're there, and to tangent onto other things, I do find Wolverine cutting, for instance, Thor to be itself well into crap.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Just while we're there, and to tangent onto other things, I do find Wolverine cutting, for instance, Thor to be itself well into crap.

Admittedly, I was using that as another example of class 100s jobbing to CBPH types like Logan, but you have to factor in that he was using his beyond bullet-timer super speed and Mjolnir scraping strength at the time.

[moonknight11]

To be fair Panther was using some kind of tech (that he had never used before) to fight and hurt Namor.

However it's not like he was using increased reflexes, so Jessica Drew busting out her awesome venom blasts will merk him at the bell.

[big_adventure]

To be fair Panther was using some kind of tech (that he had never used before) to fight and hurt Namor.

However it's not like he was using increased reflexes, so Jessica Drew busting out her awesome venom blasts will merk him at the bell.

Actually, he wasn't, at the beginning. I assume we are talking about New Avengers 22 or 23 or whichever yesterday's issue was. BP's first shot against the class 100 Namor was just a hook. And it knocked Namor down and drew a significant amount of blood from him.

That is horrifying SMvFL - BP is not a class 80 or whatever it would take to come close to that. As a comparison, Namor has been hit many, many times by people like Hulk, Thing, Iron Man, Attuma, Tigershark, Orca and other guys on that powerscale and has almost never been made to bleed by such shots. So, either the argument is that BP is stronger than those guys, or that it's SMvFL - there is absolutely no middle-ground.

[CliffHanger2]

Doubt Jess can blast him before he goes invisible. He can also teleport use projectiles,k.o gas etc. What can Jess do against invisibility? I say he takes it.

[Greg]

I'm actually curious about the people claiming T'Challa can't defeat Jessica if they've actually bothered to read anything legit with Panther in it. T'Challa comes from a whole country where being a warrior is a normality. While they are a warrior country, he's been trained essentially since he could walk and is peak human without the heart shape herb that helps him connect to the Panther God. He, along with his father (or his grandfather due to the sliding timeline) have been shown to be equal to Captain America. As of now, he's had an upgrade and is now the King of the Dead. T'Challa, along with his martial artist skills and prowess, is a master of prep time and strategy, a trait he's had since his very first appearance where he actually defeats the Fantastic 4. When it comes to his intelligence, he can stand with the likes of Reed and Dr. Doom themselves despite those two being seen as the end all tops in their fields. Hell, his body guards alone were able to take down Black Widow.

All that said doesn't even take into consideration all the resources he has and can tap into, all the protection from his Vibranium suit, etc.

[Pendaran]

He, along with his father (or his grandfather due to the sliding timeline) have been shown to be equal to Captain America

So, when they're shown to be equal to Captain America, is Captain America (one not from the beginning of his career, let's go with) jobbing them out?

Because..

and is peak human without the heart shape herb that helps him connect to the Panther God.

There's comics from even a handful of years ago noting that what the whole Cap treatment does is make one into a peak human. Thereby, when Cap for instance is shown going even with Panther, or held otherwise equal, before the whole King of the Dead thing, shouldn't that mean T'challa is being jobbed out?

That stuff aside..

T'Challa comes from a whole country where being a warrior is a normality.

Meaningless for capacity. One's culture does not sub in for what one is actually personally demonstrated to be capable of.

As of now, he's had an upgrade and is now the King of the Dead.

And what specific powers does that give him and where are they especially noted as being given unto him, as opposed to just saying that?

is a master of prep time and strategy

Meaningless in a non prep fight, and useless if his reflexes are not good enough to not get zapped before he can actually apply any strategy to the fight, in that order.

All that said doesn't even take into consideration all the resources he has and can tap into, all the protection from his Vibranium suit, etc.

So, he has a vibranium suit again despite having had to destroy the vibranium? And, it really looks a bit off when you talk about people not reading anything, then keep talking about things he would need, you know, preparation to draw on as far as "resources to tap into", when the fight, from post one, is a straight fight. Prep time not given.

[Matt the Manly]

I'm actually curious about the people claiming T'Challa can't defeat Jessica if they've actually bothered to read anything legit with Panther in it. T'Challa comes from a whole country where being a warrior is a normality. While they are a warrior country, he's been trained essentially since he could walk

Batman has trained since he was 8 years old and hes only peak human

and is peak human without the heart shape herb that helps him connect to the Panther God.

Then why does he run only even with Cap with the herb?

He, along with his father (or his grandfather due to the sliding timeline) have been shown to be equal to Captain America.

Captain America is only peak human

As of now, he's had an upgrade and is now the King of the Dead.

And what speed feats has he shown since the upgrade

T'Challa, along with his martial artist skills and prowess, is a master of prep time and strategy, a trait he's had since his very first appearance where he actually defeats the Fantastic 4. When it comes to his intelligence, he can stand with the likes of Reed and Dr. Doom themselves despite those two being seen as the end all tops in their fields. Hell, his body guards alone were able to take down Black Widow.

Meaningless as this is not a prep battle but a random encounter

All that said doesn't even take into consideration all the resources he has and can tap into, all the protection from his Vibranium suit, etc.

And how is going to be fast enough to use those resources?

Also Black Widow isn't peak humab either

[big_adventure]

I'm actually curious about the people claiming T'Challa can't defeat Jessica if they've actually bothered to read anything legit with Panther in it. T'Challa comes from a whole country where being a warrior is a normality. While they are a warrior country, he's been trained essentially since he could walk and is peak human without the heart shape herb that helps him connect to the Panther God. He, along with his father (or his grandfather due to the sliding timeline) have been shown to be equal to Captain America. As of now, he's had an upgrade and is now the King of the Dead. T'Challa, along with his martial artist skills and prowess, is a master of prep time and strategy, a trait he's had since his very first appearance where he actually defeats the Fantastic 4. When it comes to his intelligence, he can stand with the likes of Reed and Dr. Doom themselves despite those two being seen as the end all tops in their fields. Hell, his body guards alone were able to take down Black Widow.

All that said doesn't even take into consideration all the resources he has and can tap into, all the protection from his Vibranium suit, etc.

1. No vibranium - it's all gone.

2. He is NOT equal to Reed and Doom, not here, since his feats just aren't close. Not to Stark or Pym either.

3. The King of the Dead thing doesn't seem to have really granted him any real superpowers - at least, not ones that are consistent enough to become powers.

4. Panther is and always has been a peak human, and typically identified as just a little bit physically inferior to Captain America, not superior. Marvel's own completely dubious handbook, back in the day, ID's Cap as a guy who is "the pinacle of human perfection" - capable of pressing 800lbs over his head. Panther was ID'd at 750 lbs over his head. Now, that's the handbook, and that's thus not all that valuable or useful (having once ID'd Thor as less than class 100, for example), but that's always been his limit. He was helpless as a child against both Sabertooth and Kraven - two somewhat-superior-to-CBPH-in-some-way-or-another guys, and need his wife to bail him and his pride out in those fights. So to suddenly pretend he can even move Namor's head with a punch is completely ridiculous.

5. Panther is excellent with prep, and has amazing resources... but neither of those things does him any good at all here, since he doesn't get any prep at all. He gets standard gear, which includes black PJ's, fingernails of a bag lady, and not much else.

6. Jess is somewhere between class 5 and 10, and nearly as quick as spider-man, and a much better fighter. She can fly, and shoot energy beams. And she can pheremone-whammy men. So, she's faster, stronger, less skilled, and has both ranged and esoteric attacks to use here. BP is... wearing black PJs, is more skilled and is more arrogant.

So no, in an arena fight, BP doesn't have a shot in hell, unless we want to start granting him totally plot-devicey powers that he's never consistently shown.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Huh.

Tis the season of a amusing threads, I suppose.

[Double 0]

If going by recent feats, so like since the King of the Dead upgrade:

1) Taken shots from both Phoenix upgraded-Namor and regular Namor. Attacked Namor with equipment, and judging by the fact that Namor was both screaming and bleeding, did some damage (also, one of the attacks looked like it was while the gloves were powering up) (AvX, New Avengers)

2) Tore through a cyborg (New Avengers)

3) Has new standard equipment (teleportation, cloaking, shield, bombs, kinetic knives, power gloves), some of have been used more than once (against Black Swan's forces, against Great Society)

4) Though off panel, was able to make Black Dwarf retreat from a fight, injuring his right arm.


Pre-KOD, Jessica has this one in the bag. I'm less sure when it comes to current Black Panther. He's consistently performed feats beyond his normal stats in terms of durability and strength. Speed wise it's less clear, same with how much these feats had to do with equipment instead of physical stats (though the main parts of the fight happened off-panel, it didn't look like Black Panther was using his standard gear against Black Dwarf).


I would still say Jessica 8/10 at worst with standard rules though, due to lack of clarity on Black Panther's current stats. Also, Vibranium is still around; Hickman addressed that in FF.