Either getting Pre Crisis or Post Crisis settled is the key to fixing Superman.

[objectivewatcher2013]

The Superman fans are divided. Some like the Silver age pre Crisis Superman, think Chris Reeves. Philosophically, he's Siperman disguised as Clark Kent. Clark Kent doesn't exist. So he's a bumbling idiot who trips over his shoelaces.

Where as you have Post Crisis Superman where Clark Kent is disguised as Superman. He's Clark Kent, raised on Kent values. Superman is the disguise. Think Superman animated series and Smallville.

There have been attempts to mix the two i.e. Bendis with Silver age mixed with Post Crisis style. But it isn't necessarily working. So, if you were in charge of getting Superman character off the ground again, which version of him would be best going forward, Silvervage Pre Crisis or Post Crisis. Side note, please get rid of the trunks lol.

[Sacred Knight]

This is why I think they should create/use another Superman. Embrace that these--despite them being often times subtle--differences indeed split the fandom and instead of trying to combine them, separate them entirely. For the main line stick with the post-Crisis flavor. Take more pre-Crisis themes as the other one. I know that brings about the question: Why Superman? Why does he get this treatment and not others? Well one, Superman's a bit unique in this regard. No other fandom is really divided like this outside of mythoi with actual different people in the main role (Barry/Wally). Two, Superman can support it. He's not AS popular as he used to be by any stretch, but the concept and mythos can carry quite a few books still, this much is proven. Three, well, by all means do branch out and do it with other characters. In the end ideally you actually end up with a situation where all of fandom checks out both worlds. And indeed best of both worlds there.

[objectivewatcher2013]

This is why I think they should create/use another Superman. Embrace that these--despite them being often times subtle--differences indeed split the fandom and instead of trying to combine them, separate them entirely. For the main line stick with the post-Crisis flavor. Take more pre-Crisis themes as the other one. I know that brings about the question: Why Superman? Why does he get this treatment and not others? Well one, Superman's a bit unique in this regard. No other fandom is really divided like this outside of mythoi with actual different people in the main role (Barry/Wally). Two, Superman can support it. He's not AS popular as he used to be by any stretch, but the concept and mythos can carry quite a few books still, this much is proven. Three, well, by all means do branch out and do it with other characters. In the end ideally you actually end up with a situation where all of fandom checks out both worlds. And indeed best of both worlds there.

Why does Superman get this treatment? Simple answer. You had a successful silver age on screen translation in Chris Reeves Superman, but unfortunately, we've yet to have a successful post Crisis Superman on screen. All have short. Superman Returns, nope. Man of Steel, nice try, but still not it, btw, I think Henry Cavill should be kept and a soft reboot be done, but I digress, we've yet to have a successful live incarnation of a post Crisis Superman on screen.

[Vordan]

Why does Superman get this treatment? Simple answer. You had a successful silver age on screen translation in Chris Reeves Superman, but unfortunately, we've yet to have a successful post Crisis Superman on screen. All have short. Superman Returns, nope. Man of Steel, nice try, but still not it, btw, I think Henry Cavill should be kept and a soft reboot be done, but I digress, we've yet to have a successful live incarnation of a post Crisis Superman on screen.

It’s weird because in some ways, the Donner Superman IS Post-Crisis Superman. I’ve been reading about Pre-Crisis Superman, and one of the main differences between Pre and Post is that Pre-Crisis has a pretty innate sense of right and wrong straight from the get go. The Kents do little to no moralizing with Clark in the issues I’ve read, Clark simply knows he has to do the right thing. One weird fact: Pre-Crisis Kents in the issues I've read weren’t farmers, they were shopkeepers, and I’m pretty sure the iconic Kent farmers aspect comes from the Reeves film.

Byrne took a lot from the film for his reboot, (makes sense given how popular it was), so in a weird way the Reeves Superman feels more like Post Crisis Supes to me even though he predates Post Crisis Supes!

The big fight between the versions of Superman is “how alien should he be?”. How much of the “weirdness” are they going to give Superman? Is he super smart as well as strong? Are all the varieties of Kryptonite present? Does he think of himself as Kal-El or Clark Kent? There’s a tug of war back and forth between whether those weird factors make him too unrelatable, and whether the weird factors are needed to keep him interesting. It’s a tough balancing act because I don’t think the Pre-Crisis Superman is of interest to people today, but the struggles Supes has had in the modern era shows that maybe the Post-Crisis Superman was TOO grounded to keep things exciting.

[MajorHoy]

It’s weird because in some ways, the Donner Superman IS Post-Crisis Superman. I’ve been reading about Pre-Crisis Superman, and one of the main differences between Pre and Post is that Pre-Crisis has a pretty innate sense of right and wrong straight from the get go. The Kents do little to no moralizing with Clark in the issues I’ve read, Clark simply knows he has to do the right thing. One weird fact: Pre-Crisis Kents in the issues I've read weren’t farmers, they were shopkeepers, and I’m pretty sure the iconic Kent farmers aspect comes from the Reeves film.

I believe the Kents were originally farmers and may have become shop keepers as they got older.

[objectivewatcher2013]

It’s weird because in some ways, the Donner Superman IS Post-Crisis Superman. I’ve been reading about Pre-Crisis Superman, and one of the main differences between Pre and Post is that Pre-Crisis has a pretty innate sense of right and wrong straight from the get go. The Kents do little to no moralizing with Clark in the issues I’ve read, Clark simply knows he has to do the right thing. One weird fact: Pre-Crisis Kents in the issues I've read weren’t farmers, they were shopkeepers, and I’m pretty sure the iconic Kent farmers aspect comes from the Reeves film.

Byrne took a lot from the film for his reboot, (makes sense given how popular it was), so in a weird way the Reeves Superman feels more like Post Crisis Supes to me even though he predates Post Crisis Supes!

The big fight between the versions of Superman is “how alien should he be?”. How much of the “weirdness” are they going to give Superman? Is he super smart as well as strong? Are all the varieties of Kryptonite present? Does he think of himself as Kal-El or Clark Kent? There’s a tug of war back and forth between whether those weird factors make him too unrelatable, and whether the weird factors are needed to keep him interesting. It’s a tough balancing act because I don’t think the Pre-Crisis Superman is of interest to people today, but the struggles Supes has had in the modern era shows that maybe the Post-Crisis Superman was TOO grounded to keep things exciting.

The ultimate paradox.

[Jon Clark]

I have to agree that a Pre-Crisis Superman has yet to be seen in live action.

The Donner movies made Superman a more divided character. Clark (at least by 1978) was no longer a clown. He was less confrontation than the average guy, but unless his clumsiness was needed to cover a super-feat he wasn't particularly clutzy. And Superman wasn't stand-offish or obsessed with not affecting humanity. The whole training by Jor-El was something we had never seen in any medium before. Whether or not Clark knew of his origins he was always as much a product of Earth as anything- and his Kryptonian heritage was a part of that without being at odds with it. It was only after the movie that we saw ideas about whether he was more the son of Krypton or the Kents. That take was continued on the Superboy TV series that seemed more Pre-Crisis than post, despite being released 3 years after the Byrne reboot.

The 1950's show had the Clark problem but in reverse. Reeves never quite found a way to distinguish Clark from Superman. We either got a few infrequent overcompensations like the buffoonish 1978 version, or the more common to the TV take where Clark acts like Superman and seems to catch himself in mid-sentence and badly try to recover. But George Reeve did a perfect Superman- a man who was in charge *even if not always in complete control) of the situation.

I think we need a Superman who at his core is the Bronze Age Superman. A guy who is a hero 24/7 and identifies more with his Superman role, but whose Clark Kent guise is a more natural outgrowth of his experiences. A Clark who tries to shed attention and avoid physical confrontation, but who shares the same backbone as Superman just in a less forceful manner. Superman will physically confront a corrupt builder at the scene of a building collapse while threatening and lecturing the man about safety issues. Clark will maybe ask the guy hard questions but will avoid a shouting match preferring to let his story do the talking. Superman will obviously deal with a mugger he comes across in a direct manner. Clark will hand over his wallet without resistance, but look for some way to use hs powers covertly to trip up the mugger. To anyone but the reader (and characters in on the secret) Clark is almost never the hero.

[SiegePerilous02]

Is Reeves really a pure Silver Age adaptation? it seems like some of the stuff that creeped into the post-Crisis incarnation (distilling things down to get rid of all other Kryptonian survivors and the Legion, the S-logo being the El family crest, Lois giving him the Superman name, businessman Lex, etc) have their roots in the movie. i think Byrne was pretty vocal about drawing inspiration from it, among other things. A.I. Jor-El and us being unable to get rid of him may have started there too.

So we might have yet to have a pure pre-Crisis Superman on screen. For the movie I'd embrace Morrison's New 52 Superman, as the Golden age roots are just as relevant today as they were before, and gradually have him get more powerful and wiser. He shows more restraint, but "don't tug on Superman's cape" is still very much a thing. Do Supergirl and Legion spin offs. The only post-Crisis development I'd keep is Lois eventually learning the secret and them getting married, but they've been ship teased since like Day 1 and isn't a pure post-Crisis idea.

[seismic-2]

I used to read Superman back in the Silver Age from time to time, and I didn't much care for it, especially how much of it was devoting to his trying to maintain a secret identity. (The very fact that he actually had one wasn't a secret, which as Byrne pointed out, is pretty dumb.) If you want to see live-action Silver Age Superman, watch the TV show with George Reeves (which I also didn't much care for). Donner re-invented much of the character for the first movie, and it really took off from there.

[objectivewatcher2013]

Is Reeves really a pure Silver Age adaptation? it seems like some of the stuff that creeped into the post-Crisis incarnation (distilling things down to get rid of all other Kryptonian survivors and the Legion, the S-logo being the El family crest, Lois giving him the Superman name, businessman Lex, etc) have their roots in the movie. i think Byrne was pretty vocal about drawing inspiration from it, among other things. A.I. Jor-El and us being unable to get rid of him may have started there too.

So we might have yet to have a pure pre-Crisis Superman on screen. For the movie I'd embrace Morrison's New 52 Superman, as the Golden age roots are just as relevant today as they were before, and gradually have him get more powerful and wiser. He shows more restraint, but "don't tug on Superman's cape" is still very much a thing. Do Supergirl and Legion spin offs. The only post-Crisis development I'd keep is Lois eventually learning the secret and them getting married, but they've been ship teased since like Day 1 and isn't a pure post-Crisis idea.

But you see, Man of Steel kinda was New 52 Superman. Not a terrible movie by any stretch, but there was never a "Superman" moment in the movie. You know where he catches Lois in one arm and a helicopter in the other. That's where that rush of feels comes in, that never happened in Man of Steel . Btw, Hans Zimmer soundtrack was legendary. Hope they bring him back. I like the suit also, get rid of the trunks.

[SiegePerilous02]

But you see, Man of Steel kinda was New 52 Superman. Not a terrible movie by any stretch, but there was never a "Superman" moment in the movie. You know where he catches Lois in one arm and a helicopter in the other. That's where that rush of feels comes in, that never happened in Man of Steel . Btw, Hans Zimmer soundtrack was legendary. Hope they bring him back. I like the suit also, get rid of the trunks.

It really wasn't a New 52 movie though. Clark was going through a more personal journey to discover his roots in the movie, there was nothing on his journalism or "champion of the oppressed" stuff in there, nor any of the Golden Age swagger. Cavill probably could have killed it if he was given that material, but he wasn't and some have accused the film of not letting him emote at all.

Movie audiences haven't really gotten a fun Superman who kicks ass and has balls of steel but is still a super nice, charismatic guy who does the right thing because it's right. It might help restore his popularity if we got one. If it was presented in a well done, fun, (god help us) Marvel style tone people would eat that **** up.

[Doctor Know]

But you see, Man of Steel kinda was New 52 Superman. Not a terrible movie by any stretch, but there was never a "Superman" moment in the movie. You know where he catches Lois in one arm and a helicopter in the other. That's where that rush of feels comes in, that never happened in Man of Steel . Btw, Hans Zimmer soundtrack was legendary. Hope they bring him back. I like the suit also, get rid of the trunks.

The very first thing we see Superman do in MOS is save a bunch of trapped oil rig workers and hold up the rig to allow the helicopter escape. That's a Superman moment.

[objectivewatcher2013]

Most importantly, keep the Kents alive. There's no value in killong them off. You only kill them off unless you're killing off his Clark Kent persona , and he's full Kal El disguised as Clark Kent.

[Kuwagaton]

Cap works because they play him off of a fantastic batch of other established heroes. If he was the only bull in the ring and went about saying "mind your language" people would probably get bored. Which is weird because that's not even like comic Cap to say. They got away with making him seem more uptight and upright because they had everything else working. Winter Soldier and Civil War were probably good even if you took him out of the equation. First Avenger centered on him, and just seemed to come and go.

Is Reeves really a pure Silver Age adaptation? it seems like some of the stuff that creeped into the post-Crisis incarnation (distilling things down to get rid of all other Kryptonian survivors and the Legion, the S-logo being the El family crest, Lois giving him the Superman name, businessman Lex, etc) have their roots in the movie. i think Byrne was pretty vocal about drawing inspiration from it, among other things. A.I. Jor-El and us being unable to get rid of him may have started there too.

Small thing: Waid, who distinctly was a bigger pre-crisis fan and likely still is, was the one to insert the thing about the family crest.

Johns is the bigger influence on modern Superman by far, and they seem to be of similar tastes. Except I think Johns highlights the difference between the Silver Age and the Reeve Superman. The latter guy was largely his own thing, a superhero dropped into 70s New York as opposed to the exuberant fever dream atmosphere of the comics up to maybe around then. Of the four films I think Lana, Lois, Perry, and Zod were the only characters really like their counterparts, and Zod only because his origin was rather the same. Lois was different enough that when writers started channeling Margot Kidder for the comics, it stood out strongly after a while.

If you really wanted I think you could break the Superman from 1938-2011 into a dozen fragments. I don't pick "this" or "that" one, that to me misses the fun of the character. As the OP points out after a while they tried grafting two takes together, and it was less than the sum of both. Every time Johns comes on he also tries grafting the Donner tropes, too. No idea where that puts many new readers except I think he does write some pretty decent to great jumping on stories.

Bendis right now is doing his own thing and I like that. Obviously he's not a dentist named Craig who becomes Superman by striking his ring on the ground, so there is an influence. But all that classic stuff is out there to enjoy already so Bendis seems to just move forward with some of the more fun concepts.

[SiegePerilous02]

Pepper Potts is a love interest. Every movie has one of those.

What I'm referring to is empathy from the audience. The Daily Planet/Daily Bugle casts are newspaper/media publishers. Clark Kent, not Superman would have to be the one to interact with them. The issue I brought up is one you see in Superman Returns, the Supergirl TV show, TASM and MCU Spider-Man movies. Most of the story and action is not occurring inside a newsroom. If they even include one at all. Supergirl does most of her work with the DEO. With Catco being there for mellow drama. Spider-Man went with HS/relationship drama of those he's friends with. You could cut the Planet/Bugle cres out of the story and lose nothing. Which is what has happened recently for both Spidey and Supes across media.

Supergirl's not really a good example for why the Daily Planet can't work for Clark. I've never watched the show, don't plan on it, but putting Kara in such a setting to riff on what Clark does seems pretty bland to begin with. Most Superman media recently has been pretty lousy all around, so the Planet staff being phased out in media doesn't mean much.

If the next movie involves Brainiac or Darkseid invading the planet, who is going to care about the office space nonsense inside a news corp? You'd be better served using the Star Labs cast. Emil Hamilton, Kitty Faulkner, John Henry Irons, Kimiyo Hoshi etc. They have the resources, intelligence, and abilities to better support Superman in an action movie. Note how there are no spare or superfluous characters in the tight-knit MCU movies or the Nolan Batman movies. Everyone present contributes something to the story and action.


I just don't see how, in this day and age where print and televised media is on the decline; why Superman should take time away from his busy schedule to hang out in an office job that he doesn't need. With characters (excluding Lois) who aren't essential to the mythos. The goal has to be to tighten the IP's belt.

Now if you want to do a grounded story. About corruption, crime, scandal etc, in Metropolis. Then the news crew would have more to do. Same goes for Maggie Sawyer and Dan Turpin at Metropolis PD. But most people want a high flying, science fiction adventure of Supes fighting a computer tyrant or a demonic space Hitler.

If Clark doesn't need the job, then we might as well ditch the secret ID altogether. But traditionalists wouldn't go for that, at least not right away, and I don't think the casuals would be terribly interested either. As much as the "his secret identity is so obvious!" is lampooned by everyone, such a change still needs to be cautiously done. He has the job because it's a career path he's interested in. He loves to write and he loves pursuing an alternate method of seeking justice, not just with his fists. Also, if Lois is essential and his primary love interest, she works there. So why wouldn't the camera be following her and him in that setting? The DC universe is bonkers all around, why wouldn't we want to see how a news corp that we have two main characters working at report it?

All of the classic DP staff are essential to varying degrees, not just Lois. They are more essential than any of the Star Labs cast except maybe John Henry, and he still trails behind them because he was introduced so late. Why wouldn't Lois and Jimmy get involved in a high flying adventure with Superman? They literally do it all the time. Jimmy gets turned into a Turtle Boy or a Werewolf every other week. There is no obligation to make a Daily Planet story any less weird than the rest of it.

Don't tighten the IPs belt. Superman needs way less subtraction. Enough has been cut away from him as it is, and it hasn't helped him in the slightest, at least beyond the short term.

Small thing: Waid, who distinctly was a bigger pre-crisis fan and likely still is, was the one to insert the thing about the family crest.

Ah, that's true my mistake.