Either getting Pre Crisis or Post Crisis settled is the key to fixing Superman.

[Doctor Know]

Well, not to say go Marvel style per se, but keep in mind, you don't get any cornier than Captain America, and yet somehow he's cool, how? That's the key.

Captain America is cool because they changed the formula of his movies. Borrowing heavy from the Brubaker run. Which saw Cap change from social crusader/Avenger. To a Mission Impossible/James Bond super spy superhero. Note how the Brubaker and the Russo brother movies kept the super villain/world ending plans to a minimum. Cap's cast in both comics and movies was elevated by street level heroes and villains. Bucky, Falcon, Zemo, Crossbones, Sin, Sharon Carter (way cooler in the comics than the movies), and Nick Fury.


With Supes, you are advocating a mishmash of the hyperbolic fantasy/whimsical fairy tale of the Silver Age/Reeves films and the modern (what if Superman was real in our world) take of post-Crisis/New 52/MOS.

Captain America worked on screen because he changed genres to something people like and can easily consume. See James Bond, Mission Impossible, Fast and the Furious 5-8. Something similar can work for Supes, but you'd have to work out the how, and what of the question. How would you go about adapting genres and attracting and audience. What is the new take trying to accomplish or what goal is Supes working towards.


It be better to compare Supes to Thor. Thor managed to keep the fantasy and fairy tale aspects of his comics and still produce action romps with comedy. Issue with Supes is, you can't do that with the Daily Planet cast. Jimmy, Lois, Perry, Cat, Steve and Morgan Edge don't fit into that type of world. There are however low tier JLA, JSA and TT members Supes could have adventures with and play off against. Just like Thor and Cap play off against lower tier characters in their movies to great success.

[SiegePerilous02]

Captain America is cool because they changed the formula of his movies. Borrowing heavy from the Brubaker run. Which saw Cap change from social crusader/Avenger. To a Mission Impossible/James Bond super spy superhero. Note how the Brubaker and the Russo brother movies kept the super villain/world ending plans to a minimum. Cap's cast in both comics and movies was elevated by street level heroes and villains. Bucky, Falcon, Zemo, Crossbones, Sin, Sharon Carter (way cooler in the comics than the movies), and Nick Fury.


With Supes, you are advocating a mishmash of the hyperbolic fantasy/whimsical fairy tale of the Silver Age/Reeves films and the modern (what if Superman was real in our world) take of post-Crisis/New 52/MOS.

Captain America worked on screen because he changed genres to something people like and can easily consume. See James Bond, Mission Impossible, Fast and the Furious 5-8. Something similar can work for Supes, but you'd have to work out the how, and what of the question. How would you go about adapting genres and attracting and audience. What is the new take trying to accomplish or what goal is Supes working towards.


It be better to compare Supes to Thor. Thor managed to keep the fantasy and fairy tale aspects of his comics and still produce action romps with comedy. Issue with Supes is, you can't do that with the Daily Planet cast. Jimmy, Lois, Perry, Cat, Steve and Morgan Edge don't fit into that type of world. There are however low tier JLA, JSA and TT members Supes could have adventures with and play off against. Just like Thor and Cap play off against lower tier characters in their movies to great success.

I think if you draw inspiration from the Silver Age, you can put the Daily Planet staff into those type of stories fairly easily. Especially Jimmy.

I don't know if I'd lump in New 52 with Post-Crisis and MOS. Krypto, time travel and 5th dimensional imps were introduced into that thing fairly quickly. Not of that meshes with the tone of MOS and post-Crisis had some of it but early on it seemed more subdued than either the Silver Age or New 52

[Jon Clark]

I have to agree that a Pre-Crisis Superman has yet to be seen in live action.

The Donner movies made Superman a more divided character. Clark (at least by 1978) was no longer a clown. He was less confrontation than the average guy, but unless his clumsiness was needed to cover a super-feat he wasn't particularly clutzy. And Superman wasn't stand-offish or obsessed with not affecting humanity. The whole training by Jor-El was something we had never seen in any medium before. Whether or not Clark knew of his origins he was always as much a product of Earth as anything- and his Kryptonian heritage was a part of that without being at odds with it. It was only after the movie that we saw ideas about whether he was more the son of Krypton or the Kents. That take was continued on the Superboy TV series that seemed more Pre-Crisis than post, despite being released 3 years after the Byrne reboot.

The 1950's show had the Clark problem but in reverse. Reeves never quite found a way to distinguish Clark from Superman. We either got a few infrequent overcompensations like the buffoonish 1978 version, or the more common to the TV take where Clark acts like Superman and seems to catch himself in mid-sentence and badly try to recover. But George Reeve did a perfect Superman- a man who was in charge *even if not always in complete control) of the situation.

I think we need a Superman who at his core is the Bronze Age Superman. A guy who is a hero 24/7 and identifies more with his Superman role, but whose Clark Kent guise is a more natural outgrowth of his experiences. A Clark who tries to shed attention and avoid physical confrontation, but who shares the same backbone as Superman just in a less forceful manner. Superman will physically confront a corrupt builder at the scene of a building collapse while threatening and lecturing the man about safety issues. Clark will maybe ask the guy hard questions but will avoid a shouting match preferring to let his story do the talking. Superman will obviously deal with a mugger he comes across in a direct manner. Clark will hand over his wallet without resistance, but look for some way to use hs powers covertly to trip up the mugger. To anyone but the reader (and characters in on the secret) Clark is almost never the hero.

[Doctor Know]

I think if you draw inspiration from the Silver Age, you can put the Daily Planet staff into those type of stories fairly easily. Especially Jimmy.

I don't know if I'd lump in New 52 with Post-Crisis and MOS. Krypto, time travel and 5th dimensional imps were introduced into that thing fairly quickly.

The immediate issue that comes up with the Daily Planet cast is whether the Daily Planet cast know Clark is Superman. This is one of the things that went wrong with Superman Returns. Clark knows he's Superman. The audience knows he's Superman. But Lois, Jimmy, Perry etc don't. They're not "in" on the joke. So the audience can't connect with them or develop empathy for their roles in the story. They are just there. Compare to other ensemble cast films, Fast and Furious, Mission Impossible, Avengers, X-Men/Deadpool, Star Trek, GOTG etc. Those cast members all know the mission. They all know why they're there and work together towards a goal.

Without that, the Daily Planet cast won't be apart of the action. They will be spectators to the action/plot happening all around them.

There's a reason why recent Superman and Spider-Man comics and movies have phased out and diminished the roles of the Bugle and Planet casts to the title character's stories.

[SiegePerilous02]

The immediate issue that comes up with the Daily Planet cast is whether the Daily Planet cast know Clark is Superman. This is one of the things that went wrong with Superman Returns. Clark knows he's Superman. The audience knows he's Superman. But Lois, Jimmy, Perry etc don't. They're not "in" on the joke. So the audience can't connect with them or develop empathy for their roles in the story. They are just there. Compare to other ensemble cast films, Fast and Furious, Mission Impossible, Avengers, X-Men/Deadpool, Star Trek, GOTG etc. Those cast members all know the mission. They all know why they're there and work together towards a goal.

Without that, the Daily Planet cast won't be apart of the action. They will be spectators to the action/plot happening all around them.

There's a reason why recent Superman and Spider-Man comics and movies have phased out and diminished the roles of the Bugle and Planet casts to the title character's stories.

The film could always change things up and actually have the cast reveal they know the secret/learn the secret as they transition into wilder arcs. Or even get bold and play up the ambiguity a bit; it's been implied that Jimmy and Perry know more than they let on and just don't comment on the fact that they know. Or they could have a wider variety of Superman films. A more relatively grounded story on Earth with the Planet staff involved, or have them be absent in another film when Superman goes on some weird space adventure or time travels with the Legion.

But Lois and Jimmy are practically weirdness magnets by themselves. Just look at their publication history. Maybe the casual audience needs to be reminded that even Clark's co-workers don't lead very grounded lives whether he's around or not. The DCU is a weird ass place. And currently, the Daily Planet staff is coming back into prominence. Lois and Jimmy have their own mini series.

[objectivewatcher2013]

Captain America is cool because they changed the formula of his movies. Borrowing heavy from the Brubaker run. Which saw Cap change from social crusader/Avenger. To a Mission Impossible/James Bond super spy superhero. Note how the Brubaker and the Russo brother movies kept the super villain/world ending plans to a minimum. Cap's cast in both comics and movies was elevated by street level heroes and villains. Bucky, Falcon, Zemo, Crossbones, Sin, Sharon Carter (way cooler in the comics than the movies), and Nick Fury.


With Supes, you are advocating a mishmash of the hyperbolic fantasy/whimsical fairy tale of the Silver Age/Reeves films and the modern (what if Superman was real in our world) take of post-Crisis/New 52/MOS.

Captain America worked on screen because he changed genres to something people like and can easily consume. See James Bond, Mission Impossible, Fast and the Furious 5-8. Something similar can work for Supes, but you'd have to work out the how, and what of the question. How would you go about adapting genres and attracting and audience. What is the new take trying to accomplish or what goal is Supes working towards.


It be better to compare Supes to Thor. Thor managed to keep the fantasy and fairy tale aspects of his comics and still produce action romps with comedy. Issue with Supes is, you can't do that with the Daily Planet cast. Jimmy, Lois, Perry, Cat, Steve and Morgan Edge don't fit into that type of world. There are however low tier JLA, JSA and TT members Supes could have adventures with and play off against. Just like Thor and Cap play off against lower tier characters in their movies to great success.

Hmm.....interesting comparison. But the point I was making is that on corniness level, Captain America and Superman are similar, but yet Marvel was able to thread the needle without compromising who Captain America is. DC has yet to figure that out.

[Yoda]

The immediate issue that comes up with the Daily Planet cast is whether the Daily Planet cast know Clark is Superman. This is one of the things that went wrong with Superman Returns. Clark knows he's Superman. The audience knows he's Superman. But Lois, Jimmy, Perry etc don't. They're not "in" on the joke. So the audience can't connect with them or develop empathy for their roles in the story. They are just there. Compare to other ensemble cast films, Fast and Furious, Mission Impossible, Avengers, X-Men/Deadpool, Star Trek, GOTG etc. Those cast members all know the mission. They all know why they're there and work together towards a goal.

Without that, the Daily Planet cast won't be apart of the action. They will be spectators to the action/plot happening all around them.

There's a reason why recent Superman and Spider-Man comics and movies have phased out and diminished the roles of the Bugle and Planet casts to the title character's stories.

Spider-Man and Iron Man all started out with the normal supporting cast in the dark and let one or two in on it in the course of the movie. So I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea this puts the Daily Planet off limits. Superman’s supporting cast is far better known and understood than any of the Marvel. Pepper Potts wasn’t known to anyone prior to Iron Man. There’s no reason that you couldn’t build in that same type of dynamic with Lois or Jimmy. The three most recent Spider-Man movies built half their comedy and drama off of the secret identities.

[Doctor Know]

Hmm.....interesting comparison. But the point I was making is that on corniness level, Captain America and Superman are similar, but yet Marvel was able to thread the needle without compromising who Captain America is. DC has yet to figure that out.

I think Cap being considered corny is over exaggerated. I haven't heard Cap being regarded as such for decades. I detailed how Cap was reimagined after his first movie. It could work for other characters too.

Spider-Man and Iron Man all started out with the normal supporting cast in the dark and let one or two in on it in the course of the movie. So I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea this puts the Daily Planet off limits. Superman’s supporting cast is far better known and understood than any of the Marvel. Pepper Potts wasn’t known to anyone prior to Iron Man. There’s no reason that you couldn’t build in that same type of dynamic with Lois or Jimmy. The three most recent Spider-Man movies built half their comedy and drama off of the secret identities.

Pepper Potts is a love interest. Every movie has one of those.

What I'm referring to is empathy from the audience. The Daily Planet/Daily Bugle casts are newspaper/media publishers. Clark Kent, not Superman would have to be the one to interact with them. The issue I brought up is one you see in Superman Returns, the Supergirl TV show, TASM and MCU Spider-Man movies. Most of the story and action is not occurring inside a newsroom. If they even include one at all. Supergirl does most of her work with the DEO. With Catco being there for mellow drama. Spider-Man went with HS/relationship drama of those he's friends with. You could cut the Planet/Bugle cres out of the story and lose nothing. Which is what has happened recently for both Spidey and Supes across media.


If the next movie involves Brainiac or Darkseid invading the planet, who is going to care about the office space nonsense inside a news corp? You'd be better served using the Star Labs cast. Emil Hamilton, Kitty Faulkner, John Henry Irons, Kimiyo Hoshi etc. They have the resources, intelligence, and abilities to better support Superman in an action movie. Note how there are no spare or superfluous characters in the tight-knit MCU movies or the Nolan Batman movies. Everyone present contributes something to the story and action.


I just don't see how, in this day and age where print and televised media is on the decline; why Superman should take time away from his busy schedule to hang out in an office job that he doesn't need. With characters (excluding Lois) who aren't essential to the mythos. The goal has to be to tighten the IP's belt.

Now if you want to do a grounded story. About corruption, crime, scandal etc, in Metropolis. Then the news crew would have more to do. Same goes for Maggie Sawyer and Dan Turpin at Metropolis PD. But most people want a high flying, science fiction adventure of Supes fighting a computer tyrant or a demonic space Hitler.

[Kuwagaton]

Cap works because they play him off of a fantastic batch of other established heroes. If he was the only bull in the ring and went about saying "mind your language" people would probably get bored. Which is weird because that's not even like comic Cap to say. They got away with making him seem more uptight and upright because they had everything else working. Winter Soldier and Civil War were probably good even if you took him out of the equation. First Avenger centered on him, and just seemed to come and go.

Is Reeves really a pure Silver Age adaptation? it seems like some of the stuff that creeped into the post-Crisis incarnation (distilling things down to get rid of all other Kryptonian survivors and the Legion, the S-logo being the El family crest, Lois giving him the Superman name, businessman Lex, etc) have their roots in the movie. i think Byrne was pretty vocal about drawing inspiration from it, among other things. A.I. Jor-El and us being unable to get rid of him may have started there too.

Small thing: Waid, who distinctly was a bigger pre-crisis fan and likely still is, was the one to insert the thing about the family crest.

Johns is the bigger influence on modern Superman by far, and they seem to be of similar tastes. Except I think Johns highlights the difference between the Silver Age and the Reeve Superman. The latter guy was largely his own thing, a superhero dropped into 70s New York as opposed to the exuberant fever dream atmosphere of the comics up to maybe around then. Of the four films I think Lana, Lois, Perry, and Zod were the only characters really like their counterparts, and Zod only because his origin was rather the same. Lois was different enough that when writers started channeling Margot Kidder for the comics, it stood out strongly after a while.

If you really wanted I think you could break the Superman from 1938-2011 into a dozen fragments. I don't pick "this" or "that" one, that to me misses the fun of the character. As the OP points out after a while they tried grafting two takes together, and it was less than the sum of both. Every time Johns comes on he also tries grafting the Donner tropes, too. No idea where that puts many new readers except I think he does write some pretty decent to great jumping on stories.

Bendis right now is doing his own thing and I like that. Obviously he's not a dentist named Craig who becomes Superman by striking his ring on the ground, so there is an influence. But all that classic stuff is out there to enjoy already so Bendis seems to just move forward with some of the more fun concepts.

[SiegePerilous02]

Pepper Potts is a love interest. Every movie has one of those.

What I'm referring to is empathy from the audience. The Daily Planet/Daily Bugle casts are newspaper/media publishers. Clark Kent, not Superman would have to be the one to interact with them. The issue I brought up is one you see in Superman Returns, the Supergirl TV show, TASM and MCU Spider-Man movies. Most of the story and action is not occurring inside a newsroom. If they even include one at all. Supergirl does most of her work with the DEO. With Catco being there for mellow drama. Spider-Man went with HS/relationship drama of those he's friends with. You could cut the Planet/Bugle cres out of the story and lose nothing. Which is what has happened recently for both Spidey and Supes across media.

Supergirl's not really a good example for why the Daily Planet can't work for Clark. I've never watched the show, don't plan on it, but putting Kara in such a setting to riff on what Clark does seems pretty bland to begin with. Most Superman media recently has been pretty lousy all around, so the Planet staff being phased out in media doesn't mean much.

If the next movie involves Brainiac or Darkseid invading the planet, who is going to care about the office space nonsense inside a news corp? You'd be better served using the Star Labs cast. Emil Hamilton, Kitty Faulkner, John Henry Irons, Kimiyo Hoshi etc. They have the resources, intelligence, and abilities to better support Superman in an action movie. Note how there are no spare or superfluous characters in the tight-knit MCU movies or the Nolan Batman movies. Everyone present contributes something to the story and action.


I just don't see how, in this day and age where print and televised media is on the decline; why Superman should take time away from his busy schedule to hang out in an office job that he doesn't need. With characters (excluding Lois) who aren't essential to the mythos. The goal has to be to tighten the IP's belt.

Now if you want to do a grounded story. About corruption, crime, scandal etc, in Metropolis. Then the news crew would have more to do. Same goes for Maggie Sawyer and Dan Turpin at Metropolis PD. But most people want a high flying, science fiction adventure of Supes fighting a computer tyrant or a demonic space Hitler.

If Clark doesn't need the job, then we might as well ditch the secret ID altogether. But traditionalists wouldn't go for that, at least not right away, and I don't think the casuals would be terribly interested either. As much as the "his secret identity is so obvious!" is lampooned by everyone, such a change still needs to be cautiously done. He has the job because it's a career path he's interested in. He loves to write and he loves pursuing an alternate method of seeking justice, not just with his fists. Also, if Lois is essential and his primary love interest, she works there. So why wouldn't the camera be following her and him in that setting? The DC universe is bonkers all around, why wouldn't we want to see how a news corp that we have two main characters working at report it?

All of the classic DP staff are essential to varying degrees, not just Lois. They are more essential than any of the Star Labs cast except maybe John Henry, and he still trails behind them because he was introduced so late. Why wouldn't Lois and Jimmy get involved in a high flying adventure with Superman? They literally do it all the time. Jimmy gets turned into a Turtle Boy or a Werewolf every other week. There is no obligation to make a Daily Planet story any less weird than the rest of it.

Don't tighten the IPs belt. Superman needs way less subtraction. Enough has been cut away from him as it is, and it hasn't helped him in the slightest, at least beyond the short term.

Small thing: Waid, who distinctly was a bigger pre-crisis fan and likely still is, was the one to insert the thing about the family crest.

Ah, that's true my mistake.

[MajorHoy]

I have to agree that a Pre-Crisis Superman has yet to be seen in live action.

Isn't 1948 "pre-CoIE"?

[Yoda]

Tightening Superman’s IP to exclude all those elements makes him an exceptionally generic character. Clark Kent, the Planet, Metropolis, etc. are what makes him Superman and not any of the numerous ripoffs.

Taking off the glasses and the shirt rip IS Superman to the general public. Not punching Darkseid or Brainaic.

[TheRay]

There's nothing that needs fixing.

[superduperman]

I don't believe there is any way to really reconcile the two. One camp may just have to get used to the idea that they aren't going to get what they want. I would argue Smallville is the closest anyone has ever come to trying to mix the two successfully. And even that didn't go into things like his dual identity very much. What I do find interesting is that the one version of Superman that most fans agree on is All Star. A version that is clearly based on the SA. What this says about the fandom as a whole is anybodies guess. The one version I would say DOESN'T fit neatly into either category is Birthright. It seems to truly be it's own thing. Yet when it was released it was despised by the post-Crisis fandom. Largely because it was replacing their version. Not based on the actual quality of the story itself.

[magha_regulus]

A bit about me and my taste:

I was bornin 1982 and my first exposure to superman were the movies, super friends, the super powers figure, and the Fleischer cartoons. I truly stayed collecting superman comics starting with panic in the sky. I immediately got all of the back issues i could get my hands on, including collections like the greatest downsupremesupermanstories ever told. I did read the man of steel when it came out and yes i was 4 years old. I learned to read early because of my love of superman and could read comics when i was 3.

All that being said, despite post-crisis arguably being my era, I have always liked the silver and bronze age best! I want my superman to have the entire strange tapestry of characters: Kandor (I'm disgusted Bendis killed them all), the Superpets, the Legion, the phantom villains, titano, multiple colors of kryptonite, all of it! Those are the things that really made the stories fun for me. The best post crisis stuff for me was Morrison's jla run. That calories some of the wonder I thought was missing.

I collected the books out of love and loyalty forthe character but always wished they'd find a way to undo the crisis and bring the silver age Superman back. I'm still wishing for it all these years later.