Either getting Pre Crisis or Post Crisis settled is the key to fixing Superman.

[JAK]

I wouldn't be against the idea of an alternate reality Superman getting some consistent panel time. I mean, I've been waiting for the Justice Incarnate title with President Superman for years now!

But splitting things and making one of them "post-Crisis" and the other "pre-Crisis" feels like giving up to me, somehow. We *can* have a successful, fully integrated Superman who embodies the best of all eras, who all fans (or most of us anyway) can get behind and enjoy.....it just takes some interest and effort (and DC generally lacks both when it comes to Clark).

I mean, yeah by all means bring back Kal-L. He's the best! But I dunno if the answer is "A Superman for both groups of fans." And after the treatment Kal-L got from Johns......I just wanna see that guy get the peace and rest he deserves. I hold the "original" Superman in very high regard and don't trust DC to not take a crap on him (again).

But if they did go this route I wouldn't mind seeing Morrison's t-shirt Superman in the pre-Crisis role. I think at this point there's more differences between Nuperman and current Superman than there are between current Superman and Kal-L. Current Clark has got to be in his 40's or so, is grown and mature, experienced, married, is raising a kid.....he hits a lot of the same notes that Kal-L used to. Nuperman, with all his rash youth and Golden Age spirit (not to mention the costume) stands out comparatively, and if you're going to have two Supermen running around, one embodying pre-Crisis and the other post-, I think you'll get more differences and mileage out of Rebirth-current Superman and Nuperman than current Superman and Kal-L.

Those are good points - and on some level, they've kinda done that (since some version of the T-shirt/jeans Nuperman is "back"). Just giving him a book where he finds where he's supposed to be would be a potential next step (though I like the idea of him just having "out there" adventures, too).

[Kuwagaton]

I feel like at one point or another most of us did expect him to come back as the alternate through what we were given. I look at Denny Swan and the details of that story as a wild and panicked creative scramble.

I'd agree with you on a lot of the elements but to me the question of whether he is basically Clark or basically Superman is a core issue to the character.

Either you have the "Superman is what I can do, Clark is who I am" approach that Byrne used or you have the "and who disguised as Clark Kent" approach that permeated the Silver Age.

Byrne's take seems closer to the X-Men. Clark grows up as a regular kid until his powers manifest. At his core, he is a human being trying to adapt to gaining tremendous power. He's Tom Welling wishing for a "normal" life even while he is using his powers responsibly. He's Henry Cavill and JMS' Earth One guy who need to be shoved into making a public debut by outside forces even if the end result is still Superman. He's the nice guy next door but with superpowers.

It's really the difference, powers wise, between discovering his powers in infancy vs elementary school (pre Zero Hour). I'd say the bigger sticking point is not knowing about Krypton until three years after becoming Superman, at the age of 28. At 28 you can't really switch to anything else... for us normal people, we can't learn a new language without retaining our original accent after high school apparently. I disagree with the Welling perspective there because he doesn't waste time getting wrapped up in using his powers to fight crime even before enrolling in college or anything else regular, it's just that he's firmly against losing his life as Clark in the process.

But I do agree honestly that reconciling that with his life remembering Krypton almost instantly is just two things at 50 percent vs a real 100 percent working idea.

There's strong evidence Byrne indeed initially intended for many Pre-1986 stories to still be canon.Look no further than his Lori Lemaris retelling that was basically verbatim the original story from the silver age,only tweaked slightly to reflect the changes wrought by Man of Steel. They even reference Lori's death in CRISIS.

The weirdest thing is that until like 1990 I think, they seemed to kinda sorta remember Crisis. Was that change a firm consequence of Zero Hour?

As far as wiggle room goes too, I feel like at some point Wolfman would have referenced his pre crisis stories, since his runs were basically similar and he wrote Crisis in the first place.

I don't relate to John Byrne's Clark, because I find any macho pose is just a mask--it's men trying to protect themselves from honest emotions for fear that they can get hurt by others if they show any trace of what they think is weaknesses.

I usually see descriptions in extremes, like a big softie or John Wayne on steroids. But for what it's worth, Byrne actually had him use the term "macho" derisively. I don't think any Superman typically gets the credit of depth he deserves.

[Ascended]

Those are good points - and on some level, they've kinda done that (since some version of the T-shirt/jeans Nuperman is "back"). Just giving him a book where he finds where he's supposed to be would be a potential next step (though I like the idea of him just having "out there" adventures, too).

Well, there's Justice Incarnate.....though I dunno if that group needs two Supermen and I'm loathe to get rid of President Superman, who's just a fantastic concept and character.

There's also the Squadron Superman, that group from Grounded who're Supermen and women from across space-time who protect the multiverse from threats only Morrison on drugs could dream up. Those guys were really fun, I'd love to see them again.

I mean, ideally, for me, I'd just like to see Nuperman continue his adventures picking up after the initial Truth arc, before that story fell apart and turned to crap. A Golden Age style Superman without a secret identity or the job at the Planet.....there's a ton of interesting things there you can't do with the main version that's worth exploring. Just give me a monthly set on earth-something written by Pak and I'll be golden.

But as much as I welcome alternate reality Supermen, I really do want DC to focus on making the main guy someone who can appeal to everybody. And like someone else said, the pre/post fandom war seems to be dying down. We're several versions past both eras now (New52, Rebirth, Reborn) so it really does feel like its unnecessary to split the character along that divide.

[Jon Clark]

Well, there's Justice Incarnate.....though I dunno if that group needs two Supermen and I'm loathe to get rid of President Superman, who's just a fantastic concept and character.

There's also the Squadron Superman, that group from Grounded who're Supermen and women from across space-time who protect the multiverse from threats only Morrison on drugs could dream up. Those guys were really fun, I'd love to see them again.

I mean, ideally, for me, I'd just like to see Nuperman continue his adventures picking up after the initial Truth arc, before that story fell apart and turned to crap. A Golden Age style Superman without a secret identity or the job at the Planet.....there's a ton of interesting things there you can't do with the main version that's worth exploring. Just give me a monthly set on earth-something written by Pak and I'll be golden. .

I can picture Superman Kent as an activist who once the fervor of his outing died down would be remembered as much for his writing as his activities. A pro-Superman blog with postings by Superman, Lois (opinion pieces that she can't/won't publish through the Planet), occasional superheores (Aquaman on oceanic pollution, Cyborg on technology, etc), public figures who trust Superman to get their views out, etc;.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'd agree with you on a lot of the elements but to me the question of whether he is basically Clark or basically Superman is a core issue to the character.

Either you have the "Superman is what I can do, Clark is who I am" approach that Byrne used or you have the "and who disguised as Clark Kent" approach that permeated the Silver Age.

Byrne's take seems closer to the X-Men. Clark grows up as a regular kid until his powers manifest. At his core, he is a human being trying to adapt to gaining tremendous power. He's Tom Welling wishing for a "normal" life even while he is using his powers responsibly. He's Henry Cavill and JMS' Earth One guy who need to be shoved into making a public debut by outside forces even if the end result is still Superman. He's the nice guy next door but with superpowers.

Prior to Crisis (not necessarily since 1938 but for at least close to 25 years) Superman had been a character who was almost born super. He'd remembered his Kryptonian origins for his whole life. As much as he loved the Kents and learned from them, he always knew and accepted he was not like them. They and everyone else he knew were more fragile and saw less of the world around them. He didn't view himself as better, just different but didn't think of being like them as "normal" anymore than one of us would view "normal" as the loss of our senses or mobility. Clark was his attempt to communicate on our level, but it was just a part of a greater whole and not necessarily the central part. He was at the end of the day something more than a man, acting like a man.

And those two approaches can't really be balanced or combined. Either you approach Superman as a regular Joe and then add in the powers or you approach him as so much larger-than-life and then try to fit him into the regular world. You can't do both. I think most of the problem with Superman the past 10-20 years has been caused by trying to do both. You either got disjointed characterization when a creative team was pulling in different directions or a single creative team with no clear idea of how to approach the character.

Why can't he be both Clark and Superman?

As flawed as King's Heroes in Crisis ended up being, I thought Superman's Sanctuary testimonial did a pretty good job of showing how that he views both sides of his life as equally valid

[Jon Clark]

Why can't he be both Clark and Superman?

As flawed as King's Heroes in Crisis ended up being, I thought Superman's Sanctuary testimonial did a pretty good job of showing how that he views both sides of his life as equally valid

I skipped Heroes in Crisis based on the comments I saw.

And the Clark/Superman stuff to me is a bit of a headache because I often think people aren't using the same definitions for the two terms. He is the same person at his core 24/7 so technically he is always both Superman and Clark. Outside of Elliot S! Maggin I don't see most people describing Superman and Clark as having different favorite desserts, favorite songs, etc;. So it's more a question of degree in most cases. If he is sitting at his desk in the Planet fuming about Lex's latest public triumph- are you calling him Clark or Superman? The problem is if you call him Clark and I call him Superman at that moment we'll never be able to have a conversation because we are "hearing" different things when someone else says "Superman" or "Clark".

He can be both Superman and Clark. He can't be both "an alien whose natural abilities are far beyond human abilities" and "the son of Jonathan and Martha Kent who developed superhuman abilities as he grew older". The two concepts are mutually exclusive. They might both call themselves Superman and fight the same never-ending battle, but their outlooks and who they are at the core differ.

[Jon Clark]

It's really the difference, powers wise, between discovering his powers in infancy vs elementary school (pre Zero Hour).

To me it's more a matter of how he views himself. Is he more like the Martian Manhunter or Spider-man?

J'onn is a Martian. He isn't a human who can shape-shift, read minds, turn invisible, … If he suddenly woke up tomorrow in a solid unalterable form unable to hear thoughts, it would be like you or I waking up blind, deaf, or paralyzed. These aren't powers for J'onn anymore than we think of speaking as a power.

Peter Parker, even if he has been Spider-man for over a decade, still thinks of climbing walls, lifting compact cars, and sensing danger as added abilities. If he woke up tomorrow as a normal guy, he'd miss his powers but wouldn't think of himself as handicapped (outside of his role as Spider-man).

To me Pre-Crisis Superman is closer to J'onn. He thought of moving a supersonic speeds the same way we think of jogging at 10 mph. It wasn't a special ability, it was just what he could do. Being under a red sun to him wasn't returning to normal, it was like being weighted down.

Post-Crisis Superman was more Peter Parker. He thought of himself as a human being with the dials turned up to 11. If he woke up tomorrow without his powers he could more easily take it in stride since outrunning a bullet wasn't "natural" no matter hiw used to it he was.

I'd say the bigger sticking point is not knowing about Krypton until three years after becoming Superman, at the age of 28. At 28 you can't really switch to anything else... for us normal people, we can't learn a new language without retaining our original accent after high school apparently. I disagree with the Welling perspective there because he doesn't waste time getting wrapped up in using his powers to fight crime even before enrolling in college or anything else regular, it's just that he's firmly against losing his life as Clark in the process.

There was a Zatanna episode in one of the last 2 or 3 seasons of Smallville where Clark's greatest wish was granted. He lost all knowledge of his alien origins, powers, and the weird things around him. It fit the narrative of the show, but it was not something I'd think of being Superman's greatest wish.

[oldschoolfan]

The Superman fans are divided. Some like the Silver age pre Crisis Superman, think Chris Reeves. Philosophically, he's Siperman disguised as Clark Kent. Clark Kent doesn't exist. So he's a bumbling idiot who trips over his shoelaces.

Where as you have Post Crisis Superman where Clark Kent is disguised as Superman. He's Clark Kent, raised on Kent values. Superman is the disguise. Think Superman animated series and Smallville.

There have been attempts to mix the two i.e. Bendis with Silver age mixed with Post Crisis style. But it isn't necessarily working. So, if you were in charge of getting Superman character off the ground again, which version of him would be best going forward, Silvervage Pre Crisis or Post Crisis. Side note, please get rid of the trunks lol.

I don't see the way Bendis is handling the character the same as the way you characterize it. My suggestion is to stop trying to "fix" anything. We have had nothing but a constant stream of reboots, retcons, tweaks, crisis, replacement characters and improvements since 2001. There have been some great stories along the way.....but is the status quo of the character any better or worse for all the effort?

I like the Bendis era, but I can't help but feel that the Tynion/Jurgens era was cut short, or that Greg Pak didn't get a chance to spread his wings more.....and I realize from some reactions here that I may be in the minority, but I really enjoyed Geoff Johns/John Romita Jr. run on the book. I wish they got the chance to finish the Machinist storyline. Jurgens got it to a good holding position, but I had the sense that Johns/Romita jr. had bigger plans. The problem with letting these creators work on the character is that something in the characters background has to shift, or change completely to do it.

If the characters background was consistent, it would be a lot easier for the talent to move in tell their story.

[Sacred Knight]

That's another reason I think an alternate version would be ideal on a secondary Earth. I think you'd have far less internal desire/need to constantly screw around with the history of the older, main one. With a new one just around the corner to play with to your heart's desire and with basically a complete blank canvas, I think you'd get a main line Superman who'd finally be left to just move forward, in whatever ways they chose. Not to say things wouldn't still change in regards to the sliding scale of time and all that, that's inevitable. But constantly redoing the origin and all that jazz. They'd have another place to do that sort of stuff, a place specifically designed for it. I mean, eventually I know you run into the question of what happens years down the road when even that version starts to get populated and grow. Would they go back to similar traits, only on both lines? I could see that as an issue, but that would be a few bridges away to have to deal with.

I still think its the best compromise to satisfy to the highest possible degree not only fanbase, but also and probably more importantly the internal divide that clearly exists within DC. I'll never understand the resistance to it. But I'll keep broken record-ing it in the meantime.

[Kuwagaton]

To me it's more a matter of how he views himself. Is he more like the Martian Manhunter or Spider-man?

J'onn is a Martian. He isn't a human who can shape-shift, read minds, turn invisible, … If he suddenly woke up tomorrow in a solid unalterable form unable to hear thoughts, it would be like you or I waking up blind, deaf, or paralyzed. These aren't powers for J'onn anymore than we think of speaking as a power.

Peter Parker, even if he has been Spider-man for over a decade, still thinks of climbing walls, lifting compact cars, and sensing danger as added abilities. If he woke up tomorrow as a normal guy, he'd miss his powers but wouldn't think of himself as handicapped (outside of his role as Spider-man).

To me Pre-Crisis Superman is closer to J'onn. He thought of moving a supersonic speeds the same way we think of jogging at 10 mph. It wasn't a special ability, it was just what he could do. Being under a red sun to him wasn't returning to normal, it was like being weighted down.

Post-Crisis Superman was more Peter Parker. He thought of himself as a human being with the dials turned up to 11. If he woke up tomorrow without his powers he could more easily take it in stride since outrunning a bullet wasn't "natural" no matter hiw used to it he was.

But again, we're talking about one version discovering abilities at 2 and another at 8 (assuming that he was normal before that entirely). Someone who from elementary school could lift a truck with one hand, which the regular Spider-Man could hardly do as an adult. Your examples compare him to Spider-Man and X-Men, but discovering powers in adolescence is a diferent concept. There are six years between pre crisis Superman and post in discovery, and just a little more elsewhere considering there are more X-Men origins occuring around 15 (where Peter was) and 16 instead of 13.

There was a Zatanna episode in one of the last 2 or 3 seasons of Smallville where Clark's greatest wish was granted. He lost all knowledge of his alien origins, powers, and the weird things around him. It fit the narrative of the show, but it was not something I'd think of being Superman's greatest wish.

I agree. I haven't really paid attention to that show ever, and it's an interesting divergence. But then it doesn't line up with the main Superman narratives. The stories where his powers were gone, like Krimson Kryptonite, simply had him trying to be a powerless Superman instead of a regular guy.

I'm glad though that for all Maggin's popularity and assertive talent, there are like minded people on the existence of pre crisis Clark. Even being Super it's not like he didn't live his entire life with that second identity, in some ways it couldn't be a fabrication even if he wanted it to be.

[Jim Kelly]

I usually see descriptions in extremes, like a big softie or John Wayne on steroids. But for what it's worth, Byrne actually had him use the term "macho" derisively. I don't think any Superman typically gets the credit of depth he deserves.

If you say so, I don't remember that but I believe it happened. However, I stand by my own reading of Byrne's Clark Kent. As an artst/writer he seems to have this love for the big hunky man--maybe his "manly men" eschew the label "macho." I was just looking for a handy term to describe the archetype without getting bogged down in long paragraphs. I didn't want to bore people.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I don't think the alien and the farmboy are mutually exclusive. I think the dichotomy between the two is what makes the character so special.

I have a friend who wasn't really into superheroes at all, and Superman in particular, mostly because he was stuck on the idea that he was this impossibly perfect Boy Scout without any flaws or quirks. However, he did understand the appeal of Batman, because he viewed him as more relatable.

However, when I explained to him how I viewed the characters, it really changed his perception of Superman.

Batman is a man who pretends to be a god/demon to deal with his childhood trauma. Superman is a god who thinks he's a man because that's how he was raised.

To my mind, what makes this character so unique and special within fiction is the idea that this immensely powerful alien sun god that fell to Earth genuinely views himself as a simple farm boy from Kansas. How quickly or slowly his powers developed is largely irrelevant (although most modern versions have him knowing he's not normal as early as elementary school). What's important is that he still thinks of himself as Clark Kent of Smallville, even after he understands he's also Kal-El of Krypton.

This dichotomy makes the character an incredibly difficult nut to crack creatively for both audiences and creators. To me, though, this is why I am so fascinated by him, even if most of his stories fail to live up to the promise of such an incredible premise.

[Jim Kelly]

I've read that Siegel and Shuster's original idea for Superboy was that he would be a mischief maker. Which is kind of what Superbaby was in his adventures. I definitely think Clark should already have most of his powers at an early age and I can imagine that a little kid, who hasn't yet developed a strong sense of morality, would make trouble for his parents. Telling stories about that Li'l Clark Kent the Menace would go a long way toward rounding out his farmboy image so he's not Junior Samples.

[Jon Clark]

But again, we're talking about one version discovering abilities at 2 and another at 8 (assuming that he was normal before that entirely). Someone who from elementary school could lift a truck with one hand, which the regular Spider-Man could hardly do as an adult. Your examples compare him to Spider-Man and X-Men, but discovering powers in adolescence is a diferent concept. There are six years between pre crisis Superman and post in discovery, and just a little more elsewhere considering there are more X-Men origins occuring around 15 (where Peter was) and 16 instead of 13.

It's less about the exact age than the fact of whether Clark has a before and an after view of the powers. Clark showing a burst of super-strength a few times before kindergarten and Clark being able to lift dairy cows on a whim is the difference more than whether he is 4 or 14 at the time. Pre-Crisis Superbaby didn't have super-powers (from his perspective) he just had things he could do. Post-Crisis Clark had a period of his life when he was no more extraordinary than Pete Ross or Lana Lang. Whether that ended when he was 5, 12, or 15 it still makes his understanding of his abilities closer to "I used to be like everyone else and now I'm not".

I agree. I haven't really paid attention to that show ever, and it's an interesting divergence. But then it doesn't line up with the main Superman narratives. The stories where his powers were gone, like Krimson Kryptonite, simply had him trying to be a powerless Superman instead of a regular guy.

I'll give you that the comics were less likely to play up the "want to be normal" angle, but it has shown up in things like "One Year Later" where Clark seemed contented with not being Superman. And outside media like Smallville or Man of Steel influence people's perceptions as they come into comics. Both seemed to make being Superman a burden Clark takes up. The Earth-One series which straddled the line between being an ongoing Elseworlds and a version intended for non-comic readers did the same thing.

I'm glad though that for all Maggin's popularity and assertive talent, there are like minded people on the existence of pre crisis Clark. Even being Super it's not like he didn't live his entire life with that second identity, in some ways it couldn't be a fabrication even if he wanted it to be.

I don't see Clark as a fabrication, but I think he is less real than Superman in most incarnations. If tomorrow his powers vanished Clark would become more like Superman, but Superman would not become more like Clark. Superman will trade punches with Zod. Non-powered guy will trade punches with Steve Lombard (if needed). Clark has to back down from a physical fight for fear his invulnerability will be revealed.

Or to put it another way- Superman and Clark both observe the same morality. Superman isn't projecting a more wholesome style than Clark for public consumption. To the extent Superman is practicing any self-restraint it's the same level he practices it as Clark. There is no action Clark will let himself perform as Clark that he won't let himself perform as Superman- the reverse isn't true.

[JAK]

Well, there's Justice Incarnate.....though I dunno if that group needs two Supermen and I'm loathe to get rid of President Superman, who's just a fantastic concept and character.

I definitely agree, I like President Superman in the role. My first instinct was actually for him to join the LoSH, at least for a time.

There's also the Squadron Superman, that group from Grounded who're Supermen and women from across space-time who protect the multiverse from threats only Morrison on drugs could dream up. Those guys were really fun, I'd love to see them again.

Actually, a Justice Incarnate / Squadron Superman team-up could be fun.

I mean, ideally, for me, I'd just like to see Nuperman continue his adventures picking up after the initial Truth arc, before that story fell apart and turned to crap. A Golden Age style Superman without a secret identity or the job at the Planet.....there's a ton of interesting things there you can't do with the main version that's worth exploring. Just give me a monthly set on earth-something written by Pak and I'll be golden.

That could definitely be do-able if he "found his earth" again, or something like that. Maybe he could do the space traveller thing and then find his way back home - best of both worlds?

But as much as I welcome alternate reality Supermen, I really do want DC to focus on making the main guy someone who can appeal to everybody. And like someone else said, the pre/post fandom war seems to be dying down. We're several versions past both eras now (New52, Rebirth, Reborn) so it really does feel like its unnecessary to split the character along that divide.

Agreed here, too. In fact, that was me that mentioned the fandom war dying down (though I was likely not alone in the observation).