THE BOYS on Amazon Prime

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Exactly. Calling her "alt-right" is missing the point. She represents the worst hypocrisy/fakeness of the left (a literal feminazi), just as Homelander is that for Conservatives.

Hypocrisy means believing one thing but doing the opposite in practice. In the show, Billy Butcher is a hypocrite, someone who hates superheroes for being violent sociopaths while being a violent sociopath himself. Hypocrisy begins from a place of genuine belief and some agreement...i.e Billy Butcher really does hate superheroes and the audience agrees he is right to do so, even if the way he goes about isn't inherently right.

Pretending to be a feminist while being a white supremacist using dog whistles isn't being a hypocrite. It's being a conniving manipulative operator. There was never any genuine perspective there to start with. So no, Stormfront doesn't represent the "fakeness of the left" nor is she intended to be. The character is clearly framed as a white supremacist and racist who hides her agenda for tactical reasons. A lot of women historically were white supremacists and racists...the Daughters of the Confederacy, Phyllis Schlafly, even in the Nazi movement you had women posing as feminists like Leni Reifenstahl.

Stormfront is what she is...a racist white supremacist pure and simple.

[Username taken]

Hypocrisy means believing one thing but doing the opposite in practice. In the show, Billy Butcher is a hypocrite, someone who hates superheroes for being violent sociopaths while being a violent sociopath himself. Hypocrisy begins from a place of genuine belief and some agreement...i.e Billy Butcher really does hate superheroes and the audience agrees he is right to do so, even if the way he goes about isn't inherently right.

Pretending to be a feminist while being a white supremacist using dog whistles isn't being a hypocrite. It's being a conniving manipulative operator. There was never any genuine perspective there to start with. So no, Stormfront doesn't represent the "fakeness of the left" nor is she intended to be. The character is clearly framed as a white supremacist and racist who hides her agenda for tactical reasons. A lot of women historically were white supremacists and racists...the Daughters of the Confederacy, Phyllis Schlafly, even in the Nazi movement you had women posing as feminists like Leni Reifenstahl.

Stormfront is what she is...a racist white supremacist pure and simple.

Exactly this.

Stormfront is just being manipulative. If the show is taking her origins from the comic (which it looks like it is), she's probably the result of WWII Nazi experiments.

She's just a Nazi pretending not to be one. The name Stormfront isn't exactly subtle.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Exactly this.

Stormfront is just being manipulative. If the show is taking her origins from the comic (which it looks like it is), she's probably the result of WWII Nazi experiments.

She's just a Nazi pretending not to be one. The name Stormfront isn't exactly subtle.

I mean that's how the Alt-Right and others pose right, they are trying to be racist but doing dog-whistle tricks to pretend they aren't. A lot of them even appropriate tactics and ideas from the left and so on. They try and look and go about as if they are somewhat refined types, and even quote (stupidly and self-servingly) "great books" to make a play that they aren't anti-intellectual (which they are).

[Username taken]

I mean that's how the Alt-Right and others pose right, they are trying to be racist but doing dog-whistle tricks to pretend they aren't. A lot of them even appropriate tactics and ideas from the left and so on. They try and look and go about as if they are somewhat refined types, and even quote (stupidly and self-servingly) "great books" to make a play that they aren't anti-intellectual (which they are).

Yep plus they've made excellent use of social media to get out their message.

That's something the series touched on with "memes" and Stormfront's use of the internet.

[dswynne]

Hypocrisy means believing one thing but doing the opposite in practice. In the show, Billy Butcher is a hypocrite, someone who hates superheroes for being violent sociopaths while being a violent sociopath himself. Hypocrisy begins from a place of genuine belief and some agreement...i.e Billy Butcher really does hate superheroes and the audience agrees he is right to do so, even if the way he goes about isn't inherently right.

Pretending to be a feminist while being a white supremacist using dog whistles isn't being a hypocrite. It's being a conniving manipulative operator. There was never any genuine perspective there to start with. So no, Stormfront doesn't represent the "fakeness of the left" nor is she intended to be. The character is clearly framed as a white supremacist and racist who hides her agenda for tactical reasons. A lot of women historically were white supremacists and racists...the Daughters of the Confederacy, Phyllis Schlafly, even in the Nazi movement you had women posing as feminists like Leni Reifenstahl.

Stormfront is what she is...a racist white supremacist pure and simple.

And Stormfront is a FEMINIST clearly, when she objected to the sexualization that her handlers were putting forth. And as I stated before, she comes from a time when Progressives could also be "racist". And that's the scary part, because by purporting to be "forward thinking", someone like Stormfront could easily inject the poison that is racial superiority into the public discourse. The results? Eugenics. The end result? Fascism and later Nazism. And if you are a true believer in the cause, that is not something you can "fake", even one adapts to change over a single lifespan.

Still, it will be interesting to see how Stormfront's story will unfold. After all, the producers and actor, the one who is playing the role of Stormfront, did say that there is nuance to her behavior and methods. And personally, I am more interested in "grey" characters, even if they are reprehensible.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And Stormfront is a FEMINIST clearly, when she objected to the sexualization that her handlers were putting forth. And as I stated before, she comes from a time when Progressives could also be "racist". And that's the scary part, because by purporting to be "forward thinking", someone like Stormfront could easily inject the poison that is racial superiority into the public discourse. The results? Eugenics. The end result? Fascism and later Nazism. And if you are a true believer in the cause, that is not something you can "fake", even one adapts to change over a single lifespan.

Still, it will be interesting to see how Stormfront's story will unfold. After all, the producers and actor, the one who is playing the role of Stormfront, did say that there is nuance to her behavior and methods. And personally, I am more interested in "grey" characters, even if they are reprehensible.

To be fair, some of the early feminist movements did kinda exclude minority women from the same rights they wanted.

Nazis are super evil sure, but they weren't cartoonishly so. They were against smoking and animal cruelty, for example.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And as I stated before, she comes from a time when Progressives could also be "racist".

That's not the story that we see here. Progressives not always living to their ideals and being extreme or hypocritical is not at all, not even remotely, the same thing as a racist white-supremacist posing as a "progressive" to build her brand and trick and fool people into thinking she's one of them.

The former is a case of ideologues failing to live up to their noble ideals...the latter is a fraud and conman fooling people into thinking that any cool person making the right phrases and using the right talking points is default "good guy" without ulterior motives.

You are not misinterpreting or misreading the story...you are superimposing another story on top of the one that is actually being told.

And that's the scary part, because by purporting to be "forward thinking", someone like Stormfront could easily inject the poison that is racial superiority into the public discourse.

The point is to not believe any charismatic speaker simply because they look cool talking truth and so on, or more importantly that doing so is sufficient. We saw that with Starlight in S1 where her sincere intentions was appropriated by Vought, here we have someone who is openly cynical and manipulative using that as a con to grab power. Again the point you are projecting isn't the story we have.

Still, it will be interesting to see how Stormfront's story will unfold. After all, the producers and actor, the one who is playing the role of Stormfront, did say that there is nuance to her behavior and methods.

And we see that. We see someone who is quite cynical, manipulative and charismatic, who it's easy to believe that people can follow and whose racism and white supremacy isn't on the surface. That's a nuanced look at racism i.e. showing that people use dog whistle tactics and are drawn to charismatic presentation and style over substance (which also fits with the larger critique of the original comic and this show).

And personally, I am more interested in "grey" characters, even if they are reprehensible.

Billy Butcher and the Boys are "grey characters". The Vought CEO, Stan Edgar is also a "grey" character. As is Mallory. And Rebecca Butcher while a good person is certainly someone who's in a very grey situation. A-Train is also a character who does horrible things but is somewhat understandable and human, and the Deep is a predator who becomes prey to a cult that obviously is no better than him.

There's plenty of grey in "The Boys". Stormfront isn't part of that, nor does she need to be.

[MiddleMan]

Hypocrisy means believing one thing but doing the opposite in practice. In the show, Billy Butcher is a hypocrite, someone who hates superheroes for being violent sociopaths while being a violent sociopath himself. Hypocrisy begins from a place of genuine belief and some agreement...i.e Billy Butcher really does hate superheroes and the audience agrees he is right to do so, even if the way he goes about isn't inherently right.

Pretending to be a feminist while being a white supremacist using dog whistles isn't being a hypocrite. It's being a conniving manipulative operator. There was never any genuine perspective there to start with. So no, Stormfront doesn't represent the "fakeness of the left" nor is she intended to be. The character is clearly framed as a white supremacist and racist who hides her agenda for tactical reasons. A lot of women historically were white supremacists and racists...the Daughters of the Confederacy, Phyllis Schlafly, even in the Nazi movement you had women posing as feminists like Leni Reifenstahl.

Stormfront is what she is...a racist white supremacist pure and simple.

well said

she wasn't wrong in what she said to Homelander

"you can't win the whole country anymore...no one can"

[ZeroBG82]

She is definitely a feminist and a populist, in the sense that she believes in individual empowerment; classic turn of the century "progressive".

I think you're misreading the character, vis a vis her belief in individual empowerment. She doesn't give a crap about individual empowerment. She cares about SELF empowerment. As in, empowering herself. She uses populist rhetoric not because she has any interest in making people or their lives better, but because she knows she can weaponize the mob to her own ends once they have put their trust in her and will do her bidding. She's building a cult of personality, the sole purpose of which is to serve as her personal army. Which she even straight up tells Homelander when he confronts her about her actions. ("I'm not creating followers. I'm creating soldiers.") And she's doing it by stoking fear, and conditioning those that will listen to her that existing institutions have no power to protect them. That only she, and through her they, can do so.

Short of her putting on a tiny mustache and waxing poetic about her struggle, I'm not sure the Hitler parallel gets any clearer.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think you're misreading the character, vis a vis her belief in individual empowerment. She doesn't give a crap about individual empowerment. She cares about SELF empowerment. As in, empowering herself. She uses populist rhetoric not because she has any interest in making people or their lives better, but because she knows she can weaponize the mob to her own ends once they have put their trust in her and will do her bidding. She's building a cult of personality, the sole purpose of which is to serve as her personal army. Which she even straight up tells Homelander when he confronts her about her actions. ("I'm not creating followers. I'm creating soldiers.") And she's doing it by stoking fear, and conditioning those that will listen to her that existing institutions have no power to protect them. That only she, and through her they, can do so.

Short of her putting on a tiny mustache and waxing poetic about her struggle, I'm not sure the Hitler parallel gets any clearer.

Exactly. I think people are a little to used to how popular culture usually treats this. Before The Boys...movies were never really able to be totally honest about white supremacy and racism. Movies tended to show racist characters as having deep interior lives and say "it's not really they're racist...it's because [X]" and so on mostly because it's a tough sell to get an audience to identify themselves with a racist.

What that did, is that any time you see a character presented as racist people wonder if deep down they had other motives. You saw this with Get Out where people wondered if Allison Williams' character was some victim or so on, and she herself had to spell out no "she's just evil". (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...withSethMeyers)

[Rev9]

Do you guys think the Church of the Collective was recruiting regular humans or supers for the deep? I feel bad for the guy ,this is a super bad mix of a guy seeking help to fight his inner demons and getting that 'help' from some crazy cult.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Do you guys think the Church of the Collective was recruiting regular humans or supers for the deep? I feel bad for the guy ,this is a super bad mix of a guy seeking help to fight his inner demons and getting that 'help' from some crazy cult.

It's not really that. The Deep doesn't feel truly guilty nor is he willing to take responsibility. All he wants is to go back to being a member of "The 7" and fix his image. He doesn't get that he's done and finished as a superhero (and given the nature of Vought, he was never a superhero to start with) so the only people who can appeal to him are Scientology knockoffs who can offer a "way back" rather than real help.

The Deep is being exploited but he's being exploited because he doesn't truly take responsibility.

[Rev9]

It's not really that. The Deep doesn't feel truly guilty nor is he willing to take responsibility. All he wants is to go back to being a member of "The 7" and fix his image. He doesn't get that he's done and finished as a superhero (and given the nature of Vought, he was never a superhero to start with) so the only people who can appeal to him are Scientology knockoffs who can offer a "way back" rather than real help.

The Deep is being exploited but he's being exploited because he doesn't truly take responsibility.

Just curious ,is this what happened in the comics? I haven't read it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Just curious ,is this what happened in the comics? I haven't read it.

Nope. The Deep never had any meaningful role in the comics.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Just curious ,is this what happened in the comics? I haven't read it.

It's how the show is presenting it. The Deep is not on an redemption arc, he's on a "getting back my old life" arc.

The stuff with "The Deep" is not based on any single character from the comic but it's inspired and patterned on the actions of multiple supes in the story. All of them are a-holes who avoid responsibility and guilt and even the ones who seem sympathetic or capable of redemption ultimately coward their way out.