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  1. #1
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    Default Wonder woman sales critical analysis thread.

    This is a thread to compare, analyse, reason and discuss the ups and down of the sales in WW books. Past and present.

    The point here is ANALYSIS. DON’T just tell us the numbers or how they rose or fell from the previous month. There is a thread for that already.

    To post here you MUST give your thoughts on why. Want to compare sales of different runs and offer opinions behind the similarities or differences? That’s fine to, as long as you adhere to the website rules of respect for creators (and fellow posters or course).

    And, needless to say, you need to have some verifiable FACTS to base your points on. Not in every post, but at least at the start. Hey, go nuts and post tables. Charts. LINE GRAPHS!

    You might even make the odd prediction about the future, if you think you can spot a pattern.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to turn my Science brain to helping Paul Bon Gunther with those Purple Ray modifications. Where is that tinted cellophane... ?
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

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    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    While I can't support my idea with "hard facts" I do have something to say which some may find of interest. As I posted in the Wonder Woman Sales Thread -

    I hate to say this, but here goes. If the DC Office wants to boost Diana's sales dramatically they need to give Wonder Woman her Knightfall or Death of Superman moment. An epic event which tests the character as never before by way of a challenge which temporarily overwhelms her in devastating fashion. This will grab public attention plus provide something for Diana to come back from as fans root for her.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

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    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    But surely she has had those moments, right ?

    I mean, okay her publication history is kind of a mess, but has had to have had a Knightfall at some point.

    Because, in this day and age, I'm not sure that anyone would want to read a Diana going through the all the defeats and such. Plus it would be a PR nightmare if she underwent it when other big characters don't at the same time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    While I can't support my idea with "hard facts" I do have something to say which some may find of interest. As I posted in the Wonder Woman Sales Thread -

    I hate to say this, but here goes. If the DC Office wants to boost Diana's sales dramatically they need to give Wonder Woman her Knightfall or Death of Superman moment. An epic event which tests the character as never before by way of a challenge which temporarily overwhelms her in devastating fashion. This will grab public attention plus provide something for Diana to come back from as fans root for her.
    You could always check out how sales went when Artemis and/or Hippolyta took over as WW.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

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    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    While I can't support my idea with "hard facts" I do have something to say which some may find of interest. As I posted in the Wonder Woman Sales Thread -

    I hate to say this, but here goes. If the DC Office wants to boost Diana's sales dramatically they need to give Wonder Woman her Knightfall or Death of Superman moment. An epic event which tests the character as never before by way of a challenge which temporarily overwhelms her in devastating fashion. This will grab public attention plus provide something for Diana to come back from as fans root for her.
    I think the big thing is that we need some major high points before she's taken so low.

    Make her the focus (in a positive, heroic way!) of a major crossover event.

    Have her guest star in other books.

    Put a solid team of a hot writer/artist who care about the character and want to elevate her.

    She needs an overall boost before a story is written to give her something devastating to overwhelm her so she can recover.

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    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I think the big thing is that we need some major high points before she's taken so low.

    Make her the focus (in a positive, heroic way!) of a major crossover event.

    Have her guest star in other books.

    Put a solid team of a hot writer/artist who care about the character and want to elevate her.

    She needs an overall boost before a story is written to give her something devastating to overwhelm her so she can recover.
    Agreed. I don't think that it would do Diana good to break her when she hasn't had stories to lean on like No Man's Land, Long Halloween, Year One, etc.

    I don't think that GWW is a bad writer, far from it, but #75 made me feel as if she was struggling a bit with a character supposedly as powerful as Diana -or Grail, for that matter.

    The two of them are supposed to be some of the strongest beings in the DC Universe. I know at least that above Diana I would only put Darkseid, Superman and Steppenwolf, and the later two only by a hair. Yet she doesn't come out as powerful, most of the time.

    Perhaps it's just the scale of her threats currently. In the New 52, when facing literal gods, it was often in a whole environment which made them look powerful, be it Hades' realm, or First Born's army and twisted Olympus; recently she just seems, I don't know... Average ? It's like, she could just add a little bombastic way of fighting, a little impact in her punches and those she receives. But frankly, she reminded me more of a Bat-level character in the last issue more so than a demi-goddess/champion of the Amazon blessed by the gods.

  7. #7
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    But frankly, she reminded me more of a Bat-level character in the last issue more so than a demi-goddess/champion of the Amazon blessed by the gods.
    See, I like her the same power-level as all the other Amazons (just as I like Superman the same power level as all other Kryptonians), so her fighting them in equal footing would work well for me...if they'd stuck to that continuity. But with her canonically having way more power than all the others and then fighting them as though she doesn't is just sloppy writing. Either she's explicitly retconned back to the same as the others (so we, the readers, know what's going on), or the entire fight sequence falls apart. Which it did.

    I hate to say this, but here goes. If the DC Office wants to boost Diana's sales dramatically they need to give Wonder Woman her Knightfall or Death of Superman moment. An epic event which tests the character as never before by way of a challenge which temporarily overwhelms her in devastating fashion. This will grab public attention plus provide something for Diana to come back from as fans root for her.
    While I agree with others that she'd need more highs before a low, I also feel like saying I don't think Superman and Batman's were the same thing. Superman took him out of his own comic and was used to introduce new heroes and featured the newbies and supporting cast. Diana doesn't have a supporting cast steady enough that I think readers will show up for them. I don't know that it was devastating to him, either, in the sense that it was Batman, since he basically died heroically, then came back, with no real emotional exploration or such (since he was dead). Batman's was also used to put another character in the suit (albeit one designed to fail), but he didn't have to disappear and got a storyline out it. It's probably a better template, but do remember that after Bruce was going to retire, leave the gig to Jean Paul, but then couldn't because of what he became. Probably that wouldn't work for Diana. Though thinking back on it, I do sort of wonder if making Artemis Wonder Woman was DC's attempt at the same thing, but haven't read a lot of that storyline, so am unsure.


    Agreed. I don't think that it would do Diana good to break her when she hasn't had stories to lean on like No Man's Land, Long Halloween, Year One, etc.
    I also notice all the build-up stories listed were Batman, none Superman, but don't know what that really says/indicates, though I think it's consistent with how I see the temporarily overwhelming and it being explored more with Bruce than Clark.

    And No Man's Land was well after Knightfall. So was the Long Halloween.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-29-2019 at 07:01 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I think the big thing is that we need some major high points before she's taken so low.

    Make her the focus (in a positive, heroic way!) of a major crossover event.

    Have her guest star in other books.

    Put a solid team of a hot writer/artist who care about the character and want to elevate her.

    She needs an overall boost before a story is written to give her something devastating to overwhelm her so she can recover.
    I feel like (along these lines) DC may really be missing an opportunity to give her a strong Dark Multiverse run. One of the best parts of Metal was seeing the glimpses of the Diana nightmares. A few Diana-centric specials highlighting her villains, fears, and how they mesh during the next big JL event would probably help boost her up quite a bit, especially if they got as much of a sales push as the Dark Knights books got.
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  9. #9
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Wasn't Rise of the Olympian supposed to be her Knightfall? The last time I recall her beaten badly was by Genocide and it did nothing to boost sales. Has there EVER been a villain that Wonder Woman was actually afraid of? First Born maybe? He roughed her up pretty bad too.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    But surely she has had those moments, right ?...
    Other than her iconic origin story Diana has had no truly defining storylines like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Daredevil or the X-Men have to name but a few of her contemporaries and near-contemporaries. There are at least no moments that spring immediately to mind.

    I do agree with several other users in this thread that Diana would need to be built up before she faces her Kinightfall type event.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Latest sales

    #70 = 34,503 [-487]

    #71 = 32,792 [-1,711]

    As I read it, as of these figures, #71 is the lowest the book's sales have been for this volume [i.e. since Rebirth]
    #72 = 32,604 (-188)

    #73 = 31,459 (-1,145)

    #74 = 31,344 (-115)

    Captain Marvel outsold Wonder Woman by about 1000 units on the latest figures.

    The drop at 73, just after the beginning of the Return of the Amazons arc, is troubling (though personally speaking not unexpected)

    I would interpret that as people got to the 3rd issue of a 4 part story in the previous arc and decided it wasn’t worth their money to see it through.

    When we got to the next (current) arc a lot didn’t even wait past the first issue before they decided to drop the book.
    Last edited by brettc1; 08-13-2019 at 02:56 PM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    One thing that seems to happen a lot is Steve Orlando seems to have a lot of higher sales than Wilson at times

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    They need to solidify her supporting cast before they do any of that. She also needs interesting supporting characters that can be span-off into their own books. Part of what makes Batman and Superman what they are is that they have supporting characters that are popular in their own right. Wonderwoman really doesn't have a Batgirl, superboy equivalent. Sups and Bats have supporting characters that can sell books on their own. A lot of Diana's cast members are more interesting ideas than developed characters. Also, Batman and Superman has characters in their cast that appeal to audiences outside their demographic. I know people who are indifferent to Batman and Superman, but like Harley Quinn, or Nightwing.

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Sadly thanks to New 52 and Dc’s stupidity Donna is now really no connection to Diana. Cassie ain’t really there. They don’t want these characters to meet. This is why I actually like the idea of Sensational Comics coming back. Following different characters for Amazons past to characters like Cassie and Donna. Comic Calavade team up comic

  15. #15
    Amazing Member Heavunion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    While I agree with others that she'd need more highs before a low, I also feel like saying I don't think Superman and Batman's were the same thing. Superman took him out of his own comic and was used to introduce new heroes and featured the newbies and supporting cast. Diana doesn't have a supporting cast steady enough that I think readers will show up for them. I don't know that it was devastating to him, either, in the sense that it was Batman, since he basically died heroically, then came back, with no real emotional exploration or such (since he was dead).
    The thing great about Death of Superman is that they used it to really show who Superman is, they treated him as the icon that he is and everything he stands for and I think this is something missing about Diana. Should there be a death of Diana ? I don't know, I don't think it would be such a bad thing though for her to have a Doomsday, a really terrifying villain everyone fears. And I do think that coming back to the basics of who Wonder Woman is can do her well along with showing the DC Universe being worst without her

    The important thing about Diana is that I think she needs to be elevated and her villains, maybe have her own event or something. Sure, she is told to be this big character but how many times is it actually showed. Especially when you consider how powerful her rogue gallery is, I think DC would do well to remind people just how powerful Wonder Woman is just like Geoff Johns did with his Green Lantern run

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