Did Martha Wayne have any birth family prior to COIE?

[Bat-Meal]

I think they made Kate and Bruce cousins to make Batwoman more marketable - as judging from her original intro in the 52, and then Elegy through to the first solo, I get no sense of them being related or even knowing each other that well. The Kane name was left-over from the previous version of Batwoman. I know that they gave Martha the Kane name, but that is also a left-over of the old version of Batwoman who was Bruce's aunt. Also, the original Batwoman was gone for a long time, so they probably gave Martha the Kane name for the same legacy reasons they gave it to the original Batwoman, not planning at that stage for a new Batwoman to be created.

Then, when there was a swap of writers for Batwoman, and the Zero Year event happened, suddenly not only is Batwoman appearing in the crossover events for the first time, but Kate and Bruce are first cousins. Not much more is said about it, until the Tynion 'Tec run, and then it's hammered in again and again, with not only other members of the Bat-Family commenting in order to remind audience (most notably Tim and Babs), but multiple flashbacks of Bruce and Kate as kids together. Fast forward to the end of last year, and with the Batwoman TV series on it's way, and Kate's TV story matches in with that of Supergirl's of getting-out from under the shadow of their more famous older cousins. With Kate as heir-apparent to the cowl, being family is a quick and simple explanation, and presumably a faster way to get straight to the bat-action with all equipment provided.

I haven't seen any explanation for why the Kane Manor is said to be in ruins (seemingly for years) in the Tynion 'Tec run, because in the 52 when Renee goes to visit Kate it's at the Kane Manor, from what I recall, and they even had servants - so the place was not in ruins.

Also, yeah, Bette has invisible parents. She is also apparently invisible to Bruce, since apart from the one Zero Year issue, they seem unaware of each other's existence. Although, until the second Batwoman solo, Bruce and Beth didn't seem to know the other existed either.

The Family dynamic creates some problems, but since they have leaned so hard into Kate and Bruce being related, unlikely there's any going back anytime soon.

[Aahz]

Btw. what happend with Kates step mother?

I think that she hasn't been mentioned in quite some time at this point.

[Bat-Meal]

Btw. what happend with Kates step mother?

I think that she hasn't been mentioned in quite some time at this point.

During the Rise of the Batmen run in 'Tec, Jacob is seen on the phone to her at one point, but that's it. Otherwise she's been ignored.

Be interesting to see what they do with her in the TV series though, since she's a support character and series regular by the looks of it.

[Caivu]

I haven't seen any explanation for why the Kane Manor is said to be in ruins (seemingly for years) in the Tynion 'Tec run, because in the 52 when Renee goes to visit Kate it's at the Kane Manor, from what I recall, and they even had servants - so the place was not in ruins

It was semi-abandoned for a while, and was hit by the hurricane from NotMM.

The house was still being lived in as of Batwoman #24. At the end of Batwoman Annual #1, Jacob accompanies Beth to an island treatment facility, and it's seen near the end of the series that the manor currently isn't being used. Plus Jacob would have been away for work a lot. Catherine presumably didn't like being in the house alone, and stayed elsewhere.

Without the house being properly secured against the hurricane, it was severely damaged; we know it wasn't abandoned for good because there were still framed photos in the house.

[Bat-Meal]

It was semi-abandoned for a while, and was hit by the hurricane from NotMM.

The house was still being lived in as of Batwoman #24. At the end of Batwoman Annual #1, Jacob accompanies Beth to an island treatment facility, and it's seen near the end of the series that the manor currently isn't being used. Plus Jacob would have been away for work a lot. Catherine presumably didn't like being in the house alone, and stayed elsewhere.

Without the house being properly secured against the hurricane, it was severely damaged; we know it wasn't abandoned for good because there were still framed photos in the house.

Interesting. Would have been nice if they gave some sort of brief explanation in the comics. Wonder if we'll see the manor either in use, or ruins, in the tv series.

[Oberon]

So, with these Kane characters; Martha, Kate, Beth, Bette, and Jacob, there is a loss of good story and canon to provide any reasonable back story for Kane, as a whole.

I still think it would be a better idea to explain Kate and Bruce as 2nd cousins per my ideas above/elsewhere. That Jacob and invisible twin/brother were adopted and raised with Martha - but all these guys are children of the first cousins. As rich folks, it is not uncommon to do these things. It provides a layer of rich-weird that would work as well. Doesnt' need to be over emphasized. Jacob, et al, and Martha are siblings by their adoption, but they're really cousins, and their children are 2nd cousins.

[Tzigone]

I see no benefit to making them cousins if they are going to raised as siblings. It makes the story more convoluted but doesn't add any storytelling elements of interest. And identical twins (like Beth and Kate) don't generally run in families.

[Aahz]

Btw. I was always wondering if Kate and "Alice" were not originally intend to be new "post infinite crisis "incarnation of Kathy and Betty, and them someone along the way decided to bring back/keep Kathy and Bette as well with let to the confusing situation of having two pair of characters with almost identical names.

[Oberon]

Technically Kathy was brought back after the new 52, I think.

Tzigone; I think that even decades ago, this happened though not talked about as much. It happened in my family. An aunt who believed and found convincing evidence to show that she was not her mother's daughter, but her aunt's daughter, who was raised with cousins. (my father and his siblings).

So there are real things about that, and hey, these things happen on Soap Operas ALL the time. So it would be no more convoluted than other periodic/serial literature and those characters.

To me it is great soap. Certainly typical. But a dream, they're unlikely to do that.

[Tzigone]

Technically Kathy was brought back after the new 52, I think.

Tzigone; I think that even decades ago, this happened though not talked about as much. It happened in my family. An aunt who believed and found convincing evidence to show that she was not her mother's daughter, but her aunt's daughter, who was raised with cousins. (my father and his siblings).

So there are real things about that, and hey, these things happen on Soap Operas ALL the time. So it would be no more convoluted than other periodic/serial literature and those characters.

To me it is great soap. Certainly typical. But a dream, they're unlikely to do that.

To me, it's a weak soap opera because there's no surprise there. Believing they are siblings and finding out they are cousins could be interesting (especially if led to a fight over money or something), though I can't say I'd like it. But cousins who know they are cousins and are raised as siblings - there's no drama there at all. Just extra layers added for no reason. Might as well be siblings. Kinda how I feel about retconning Barbara to be Gordon's niece that he adopted. It changed nothing about their relationship. Potential drama was, I guess added later in the he-slept-with-his-brother's-wife-so-Barbara-maybe-is-his-daughter, but that just diminished Jim, and since I don't think Barbara ever knew, no actual drama resulted. Most people just forget the story ever happened. Subsequent versions skipped the niece thing. Which is how I feel the cousins-raised-together would be treated. Well, unless someone wanted to add first-cousin-romance, but that seems unlikely to happen.

[Oberon]

Maybe you're right.

My main motivation is to not have Kate and Bruce be first cousins, and this seems the logical way to do it. No other retcon would achieve.

But I'd drop all of this in a hot minute if only some writer would use Bette more in Batman/Woman's story. I wouldn't care about the family tree if Bette was swinging to the rescue from it.

[Tzigone]

My main motivation is to not have Kate and Bruce be first cousins, and this seems the logical way to do it. No other retcon would achieve.

I'm great with them not being first cousins. But if her dad functions a sibling for Martha, they might as well be be first cousins - they'd have the same connection because their parents would regard each other as siblignesque. Make their parents cousins who are raised as cousins (not in same household), and I'm in.

[Aahz]

Technically Kathy was brought back after the new 52, I think.

Morrison included her in flashbacks already before Flashpoint, but I think it was until the New 52 that she was shown to be alive.