Crisis on Infinite Earths - Thoughts?

[Johnny Thunders!]

I hated DC comics after COIE and I stopped buying new books completely at that point. The only thing to pull me back was Morrison's JLA. I never read the series when it first came out, but I did read it for the first time about 2 years ago and it's really good. It and Final Crisis are my favorite Crisis books. I mean, besides the old JLA ones.

[mikelmcknight72]

Interesting. So which Earth inherits Zero Hour, Cry For Justice and Heroes in Crisis?

Zero Hour probably wouldn't have been needed.

Since we are fantasizing, Cry for Justice and Heroes in Crisis would never see the light of day!

[Mutant 77]

I loved the sci-fi implications that the Crisis had on Morrison's Animal Man. That's it.

They should have left the concept as it being a single event; instead they capitalized on the name and rebooted the DC universe more and more, until it became a parody.

[j9ac9k]

I was a total Marvel guy, but "Dark Knight" and "Crisis" sold me on the DCU. It was as epic as promised, even though I had no idea who most of the characters were. The story was still extremely compelling and while I haven't (re)read it in years, it holds up in so many ways. And it's not something that was created to launch "the next thing" which feels refreshing at this point.

Two things that stand out:
- Batman was relevant, but he was far from Batgod and when things got cosmic he was mostly sidelined rather than shoe-horned in.
- How could there not be even ONE panel of Hal Jordan??!? (Barry thinks of him amongst others as he's dying, but that's it) I'm still a little sore about that... >

[Jim Kelly]

Because there was a whole other story just as important to the Crisis that was happening in GREEN LANTERN at the time. John Stewart was the only one they could lend out to COIE so it would have Green Lantern representation. But you were supposed to buy the GREEN LANTERN comic book to get the rest of the story. DC reprinted all of that in the TPBs GREEN LANTERN: SECTOR 2814 Vols. 1 - 3, and in TALES OF THE GREEN LANTERN CORPS Vol. 3--but maybe they should have made it clearer that all those books are companions to the events in Crisis.

I think GREEN LANTERN was the one title that made the smoothest transition from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis--becoming GREEN LANTERN CORPS, with a lot of great stories. Then again, that title didn't last for long, so maybe the COIE curse extended even to the GLC.

[Fromper]

Because there was a whole other story just as important to the Crisis that was happening in GREEN LANTERN at the time. John Stewart was the only one they could lend out to COIE so it would have Green Lantern representation. But you were supposed to buy the GREEN LANTERN comic book to get the rest of the story. DC reprinted all of that in the TPBs GREEN LANTERN: SECTOR 2814 Vols. 1 - 3, and in TALES OF THE GREEN LANTERN CORPS Vol. 3--but maybe they should have made it clearer that all those books are companions to the events in Crisis.

Reading it all after the fact, and never having been a GL reader, I never knew that. Thanks for pointing it out. Maybe some day, I'll look up some of those stories.

I think GREEN LANTERN was the one title that made the smoothest transition from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis--becoming GREEN LANTERN CORPS, with a lot of great stories. Then again, that title didn't last for long, so maybe the COIE curse extended even to the GLC.

Ironically, I'd say Flash transitioned smoothly from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis, as well. Barry Allen's series was cancelled a year before Crisis, he died during Crisis, and his successor got a new series a year after Crisis ended. It was a smooth and logical progression, with no continuity tangles or retcons caused by the event. Jay Garrick got retconed into the same universe as the rest of the Flash family, but Barry got off retcon free. Dead, but free of retcons.

[Jon Clark]

I think the problem after Crisis was really at the top, but I'm not sure if this was Jenette Kahn, Paul Levitz, Dick Giordano or someone else. Whoever it was, they didn't know what they wanted and they interfered with those creators, imposing changes on them. I think that George Perez would have set the Wonder Woman origin in the past, the same as Superman and Batman, but he was told to put it in the present. The same thing happened some years later when the HAWKWORLD ongong was set in the present--as the prestige format HAWKWORLD could have easily happened in the past (there was no indication in the book when it happened), but the ongoing insisted on it being in the present.

I think Perez's Wonder Woman (outside of the Titans connection) worked better than Byrne/Wolfman's Superman because it was set in the present. With Diana you knew Crisis had rebooted her and whatever you needed to know was in the current books. Superman was stuck with a vague backstory made-up of gaps in the MOS mini, some modified version of select older stories, and no map of what fir where.

Byrne thought he was fine getting rid of Superboy as he'd be telling the story of Superman's learning curve, only yo be told his first regular issues were to be set after Superman was an established hero.

Justice League changed it's stance from issue to issue on whether Batman and Superman had been official members of the team. The Bat-office nixed membership because Batman wasn't supposed to be seen as a real live being by the general public. The Super-office seemed to want Superman portrayed as a guy who showed up alongside the team on big missions but never actually joined.

[Fromper]

Justice League changed it's stance from issue to issue on whether Batman and Superman had been official members of the team. The Bat-office nixed membership because Batman wasn't supposed to be seen as a real live being by the general public. The Super-office seemed to want Superman portrayed as a guy who showed up alongside the team on big missions but never actually joined.

The whole "Batman as an urban myth", and not in the Justice League, wasn't until years later. Immediately post-Crisis, Batman was seen in public during Legends, and was the first leader of the post-Legends Justice League, before they went international. Even Tim Drake's introduction in A Lonely Place of Dying in 1989 had him seeing Batman and Robin in action on the TV news, which helped him figure out their secret identities.

So it wasn't until the 90s that they started claiming Batman was never actually seen by the public, but I don't remember exactly when. It might not even have been until after Zero Hour.

[Buried Alien]

Ironically, I'd say Flash transitioned smoothly from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis, as well. Barry Allen's series was cancelled a year before Crisis...

One month before. FLASH # 350 (final issue of the Silver/Bronze Age run) was cover-dated October, 1985. COIE # 8 (death of Barry Allen/Flash) was cover-dated November, 1985.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Fromper]

One month before. FLASH # 350 (final issue of the Silver/Bronze Age run) was cover-dated October, 1985. COIE # 8 (death of Barry Allen/Flash) was cover-dated November, 1985.

Ah, my mistake. I don't have that Flash issue, and somehow I got it in my head that his series ended in 1984, not 1985. Thanks for the clarification.

[BatmanJones]

It was amazing at the time of publication and picking up those single issues as they hit the stands was super exciting.

The impact of the event is another story. The point of the series was to simplify DC continuity (which really wasn't confusing even for a kid) and instead it broke it beyond repair. Before CoIE, "it all happened." Ever since DC has course-corrected every few years trying to get back what they gave away when they broke continuity for the first time in 50 years in return for a short-term sales boost. Since they did that, all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put it back together again.

I wish such old comics were still readable to me because I'd love to revisit the excitement of the book when it came out in 1985 and I was 16, but the dialogue and plotting are so dated I can't enjoy it and am only left with the ill effects of it.

I dearly hope the next course correction begins with the restoration of the Earth-Two JSA and somehow gets us back to an "it all happened" scenario. For the first time in a long time that seems almost possible.

[DanMad1977]

I know that it was a very important read back then, but I felt nothing. I read it last year, one issue a day and caught myself skipping word balloons and moaning about that thing.

It just didn't work out for me.

[kingaliencracker]

The whole "Batman as an urban myth", and not in the Justice League, wasn't until years later. Immediately post-Crisis, Batman was seen in public during Legends, and was the first leader of the post-Legends Justice League, before they went international. Even Tim Drake's introduction in A Lonely Place of Dying in 1989 had him seeing Batman and Robin in action on the TV news, which helped him figure out their secret identities.

So it wasn't until the 90s that they started claiming Batman was never actually seen by the public, but I don't remember exactly when. It might not even have been until after Zero Hour.

It was specifically Zero Hour that established that Batman was considered an Urban Myth, and that the Waynes' killer was never caught.

[j9ac9k]

Because there was a whole other story just as important to the Crisis that was happening in GREEN LANTERN at the time. John Stewart was the only one they could lend out to COIE so it would have Green Lantern representation. But you were supposed to buy the GREEN LANTERN comic book to get the rest of the story. DC reprinted all of that in the TPBs GREEN LANTERN: SECTOR 2814 Vols. 1 - 3, and in TALES OF THE GREEN LANTERN CORPS Vol. 3--but maybe they should have made it clearer that all those books are companions to the events in Crisis.

I think GREEN LANTERN was the one title that made the smoothest transition from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis--becoming GREEN LANTERN CORPS, with a lot of great stories. Then again, that title didn't last for long, so maybe the COIE curse extended even to the GLC.

I thought the Crisis tie-in with Guy's (post coma) intro and the mission to Qward resulting in Hal getting his ring back was great, but that's no real excuse. Hal and Barry ushered in the Silver Age and he was a founding member of the JLA -- a large part of the basis for "Crisis" came from GL comics. He could have popped up in one of the Monitor's monitors or they could have shown a panel or two to show us what the GLC were up to - just to follow up on Guy if nothing else since they showed him getting a ring in "Crisis." Or after the fact, he could have popped up in any number of places once he got his ring back. Seems like a fairly big oversight, but that's neither here nor there. Just another Hal fan griping....

I also really liked the GLC series that came afterwards, but in retrospect maybe everyone should have just gotten the "Man of Steel" treatment and just been rebooted from the beginning so everyone was even.

[DrNewGod]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I think after COIE ended, there should've been three Earths that survived - Earth 1 where all the silver/bronzed aged heroes were, Earth 2 with all the golden aged heroes, and another Earth where they could tell all of their new "Elseworld" tales (even though the term 'Elseworld' had not been used yet). That way, they could re-invent Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc... anyway they wanted to without messing up the continuity on the two Earths we already knew and loved.

I am a member of your minority.

The Legion were the biggest victims of the COIE aftermath, at least the JSA were still considered relevant to many comic readers, while LOSH a title that was once one of DC's better selling titles (was even outselling Superman and Batman during the period in the early 80's when DC was being killed by Marvel) to a title that many casual readers can't get into and were no longer considered relevant anymore.

Donna Troy would like a word with you. Honestly, having reread that recently, Legion wasn't really affected by CoIE at all. If Legion suffered, it was because the stories that had come before (Great Darkness, LSV) were extremely hard acts to follow, and no comic remains great forever, and some of the experiments that Legion tried just didn't work. At the same time, the experiments being tried with The Trinity, Flash, and (for a while) Justice League were pulling readers with limited budgets away.