why do humans discriminate against mutants and not mutates?

[XPac]

Because of politics. The whole mutant debate gif politicized. And like real politics everyone took sides and got super tribal. Doesn’t help that Magneto lead a mutant terrorist organization that regularly attack civilians.

That's the funny thing about extremists in politics. They often end up making themselves right by bringing about the thing they are preaching against.

Mags acts as a mutant terrorist long enough, when they send Sentinals after him he can say: "See! I was right all along! The government is coming after us!"

And of course that works both ways, as the guys building mutant hunting Sentinals can point to mutants as a threat to government when they start trying to shut down Sentinals.

Political extremists are great at bringing about self-fufilling prophecies.

[Electricmastro]

That's the funny thing about extremists in politics. They often end up making themselves right by bringing about the thing they are preaching against.

Mags acts as a mutant terrorist long enough, when they send Sentinals after him he can say: "See! I was right all along! The government is coming after us!"

And of course that works both ways, as the guys building mutant hunting Sentinals can point to mutants as a threat to government when they start trying to shut down Sentinals.

Political extremists are great at bringing about self-fufilling prophecies.

And I think it was around Magneto's trial in 1985 that he almost ends up killing Kitty Pryde, but stops himself after realizing that she's just a child, who happens to be Jewish like how Magneto himself is. In his efforts to get mutants to receive less harsh treatment, he realized he ended up being harsh in a way that almost lead to a child's death.

[Huntsman Spider]

And I think it was around Magneto's trial in 1985 that he almost ends up killing Kitty Pryde, but stops himself after realizing that she's just a child, who happens to be Jewish like how Magneto himself is. In his efforts to get mutants to receive less harsh treatment, he realized he ended up being harsh in a way that almost lead to a child's death.

And thus, the first time Magneto became a good guy . . . or tried to be, upon realizing how low he'd sunk. Sure, he'd go through the so-called revolving door between heroism and villainy on more than a few occasions, but still.

[Electricmastro]

And thus, the first time Magneto became a good guy . . . or tried to be, upon realizing how low he'd sunk. Sure, he'd go through the so-called revolving door between heroism and villainy on more than a few occasions, but still.

It's interesting when I saw people call Magneto a "villain," calling back to cases such as in Secret Wars, when he appeared alongside characters such as the X-Men, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man instead of Galactus and the others, because the Beyonder deemed Magneto to not be selfish due to the his desire to make the world safer for mutants, but what usually held him back was his extremist methods. Makes one wonder what he's justified and entitled in doing when considering aspects of him, especially his Holocaust survivor background.

[Huntsman Spider]

It's interesting when I saw people call Magneto a "villain," calling back to cases such as in Secret Wars, when he appeared alongside characters such as the X-Men, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man instead of Galactus and the others, because the Beyonder deemed Magneto to not be selfish due to the his desire to make the world safer for mutants, but what usually held him back was his extremist methods. Makes one wonder what he's justified and entitled in doing when considering aspects of him, especially his Holocaust survivor background.

Indeed, especially when humanity as a whole and human authorities in particular are so determined to justify his extremism with their flat-out genocidal bigotry against mutants. Yeah, you can say he's not really justified, but considering how many times human governments have been on the verge of, if not already, herding mutants into concentration camps a la the Holocaust, not to mention also weaponizing them against other mutants like Weapon X, which was a government initiative . . . it's hard to write him off as a straightforward villain.

[Agent Z]

Indeed, especially when humanity as a whole and human authorities in particular are so determined to justify his extremism with their flat-out genocidal bigotry against mutants. Yeah, you can say he's not really justified, but considering how many times human governments have been on the verge of, if not already, herding mutants into concentration camps a la the Holocaust, not to mention also weaponizing them against other mutants like Weapon X, which was a government initiative . . . it's hard to write him off as a straightforward villain.

On the other hand, how much of this bigotry has been justified, or at least mitigated, by the murderous or genocidal actions of Magneto, Mystique, Apocalypse and others?

[XPac]

Indeed, especially when humanity as a whole and human authorities in particular are so determined to justify his extremism with their flat-out genocidal bigotry against mutants. Yeah, you can say he's not really justified, but considering how many times human governments have been on the verge of, if not already, herding mutants into concentration camps a la the Holocaust, not to mention also weaponizing them against other mutants like Weapon X, which was a government initiative . . . it's hard to write him off as a straightforward villain.

He's not supposed to be a straightforeward villain... that's sort of the point.

That said, you can make the arguement that things like Sentinals justify Magneto just as much as he justifies them. It's a vicious circle after a certain point.

[Electricmastro]

Indeed, especially when humanity as a whole and human authorities in particular are so determined to justify his extremism with their flat-out genocidal bigotry against mutants. Yeah, you can say he's not really justified, but considering how many times human governments have been on the verge of, if not already, herding mutants into concentration camps a la the Holocaust, not to mention also weaponizing them against other mutants like Weapon X, which was a government initiative . . . it's hard to write him off as a straightforward villain.

He's not supposed to be a straightforeward villain... that's sort of the point.

That said, you can make the arguement that things like Sentinals justify Magneto just as much as he justifies them. It's a vicious circle after a certain point.

That's quite the dangerous part of "the ends justify the means." With Magneto going around saying "homo superior," as if being a mutant supremacist (as well as, at least I recall, Magneto wanting to replace humans with mutants), I suppose it can be argued that he was adding fuel to the fire more than anything else despite his best intentions, so in the minds of said human authorities, the means of using Sentinals is justified as a means to an end, which was to save humanity from what they saw as a threat to the species' existence in the form of mutants.

On the other hand, how much of this bigotry has been justified, or at least mitigated, by the murderous or genocidal actions of Magneto, Mystique, Apocalypse and others?

Yeah, just as humans were genocidal against mutants, like you mentioned, have also committed genocide against humans quite a number of times, no? In the end, it seems like one big mud-slinging fight in which there doesn't seem to be any clear winners.

[Huntsman Spider]

On the other hand, how much of this bigotry has been justified, or at least mitigated, by the murderous or genocidal actions of Magneto, Mystique, Apocalypse and others?

He's not supposed to be a straightforeward villain... that's sort of the point.

That said, you can make the arguement that things like Sentinals justify Magneto just as much as he justifies them. It's a vicious circle after a certain point.

That's quite the dangerous part of "the ends justify the means." With Magneto going around saying "homo superior," as if being a mutant supremacist (as well as, at least I recall, Magneto wanting to replace humans with mutants), I suppose it can be argued that he was adding fuel to the fire more than anything else despite his best intentions, so in the minds of said human authorities, the means of using Sentinals is justified as a means to and end, which was to save humanity from what they saw as a threat to the species' existence in the form of mutants.




Yeah, just as humans were genocidal against mutants, like you mentioned, have also committed genocide against humans quite a number of times, no? In the end, it seems like one big mud-slinging fight in which there doesn't seem to be any clear winners.

Of course there are no winners. Either humans subjugate and/or eradicate mutants, or mutants subjugate and/or eradicate humans, but neither can be called "winning" because no one really gains anything positive or constructive out of it. That said, I would push back against citing Magneto, Mystique, or Apocalypse as justification for human bigotry against mutants in the sense that Magneto, Mystique, and Apocalypse are not explicitly supported in their supremacist and/or genocidal aims by the majority of the mutant community, such as it is, in the same way anti-mutant bigots in positions of authority and power have their own aims and measures almost invariably supported by a visible majority of the human population. That's the main difference; there are plenty of mutants willing to fight against Magneto, Mystique, and/or Apocalypse when they're leading campaigns to massacre humans in general or human leaders, but there aren't that many humans shown willing to fight against leaders that unleash Sentinels and sanction the wholesale torture, exploitation, and murder of mutants, not to mention more recently medical genocide in the form of a vaccine that permanently suppresses the X-gene before it can ever manifest.

[mikelmcknight72]

Marvel is the "world outside your window", so it reflects humanity as a whole. In the real world, petty bigotries and double standards make no sense whatsoever. They are usually rooted in lazy, illogical thinking. The root is either fear, a desire for power, or a combination thereof. No group of people free of it, even when they try to redefine words to give themselves license to be be prejudice. It'd be nice for everyone to always be judged by the content of their character, but there are always going to be people too lazy to do that.

[Electricmastro]

Of course there are no winners. Either humans subjugate and/or eradicate mutants, or mutants subjugate and/or eradicate humans, but neither can be called "winning" because no one really gains anything positive or constructive out of it. That said, I would push back against citing Magneto, Mystique, or Apocalypse as justification for human bigotry against mutants in the sense that Magneto, Mystique, and Apocalypse are not explicitly supported in their supremacist and/or genocidal aims by the majority of the mutant community, such as it is, in the same way anti-mutant bigots in positions of authority and power have their own aims and measures almost invariably supported by a visible majority of the human population. That's the main difference; there are plenty of mutants willing to fight against Magneto, Mystique, and/or Apocalypse when they're leading campaigns to massacre humans in general or human leaders, but there aren't that many humans shown willing to fight against leaders that unleash Sentinels and sanction the wholesale torture, exploitation, and murder of mutants, not to mention more recently medical genocide in the form of a vaccine that permanently suppresses the X-gene before it can ever manifest.

Oh, I'm not justifying their bigotry. I'm just attempting to lay out all the facts on the table, the good, the bad, and the ugly, in clear view for the sake of understanding the entire situation better, regardless of who's held responsible for what.

Anyway, that line you said about "there aren't that many humans shown willing to fight against leaders that unleash Sentinels" touches on what I had been thinking recently in regards to the human/mutant dynamic in the series.

It's that I've come to the conclusion that the mutants are as feared as much as they are in the Marvel Universe because the writers are writing them like they're still in the 1960s, if not, in a more backwards time, all while the Fantastic Four and other mutate superheroes are relatively treated less harshly despite also having supernatural powers like the mutants do.

I think the human/mutant relations is portrayed as a little too backwards/non-progressive, perhaps more than it should. I realize the X-Men were created to serve as a parallel to the Civil Rights Movement and persecuted minorities in 1963, but on the other hand, we're not in 1963 anymore and, at the very least, I think it's reasonable enough to say that the world in 2019 isn't quite the same as it was in 1963.

Yes, there's still hatred in 2019. Yes, there's still racism in 2019. Yes, there's still scapegoating of groups of various backgrounds to the point of suffering in 2019. I'm not denying any of that. At the same time though, considering how there are quite a few successful celebrities of minority backgrounds, such as black actors, black athletes, black comedians, black musicians that are popular and beloved by the public by and large, as well as black politicians, and America in 2019 just being in a distinctly different place than how it was in 1963, all aspects considered overall and kept in mind, then I'd like to see a shake-up in the human/mutant dynamic in the series.

I'm definitely not saying to get rid of the minority persecution aspect of the series, as black celebrities don't always have it peachy keen either. I guess I just think that having a more "human-embracing" aspect towards mutants in addition would make for a more interesting shake-up in the current status quo, which at many times can seem to pigeonhole mutants as seemingly being only destined to suffer. As well as it how it help the series be more interestingly progressive rather than uninterestingly (and perhaps over-depressingly) regressive.

[Huntsman Spider]

Oh, I'm not justifying their bigotry. I'm just attempting to lay out all the facts on the table, the good, the bad, and the ugly, in clear view for the sake of understanding the entire situation better, regardless of who's held responsible for what.

Anyway, that line you said about "there aren't that many humans shown willing to fight against leaders that unleash Sentinels" touches on what I had been thinking recently in regards to the human/mutant dynamic in the series.

It's that I've come to the conclusion that the mutants are as feared as much as they are in the Marvel Universe because the writers are writing them like they're still in the 1960s, if not, in a more backwards time, all while the Fantastic Four and other mutate superheroes are relatively treated less harshly despite also having supernatural powers like the mutants do.

I think the human/mutant relations is portrayed as a little too backwards/non-progressive, perhaps more than it should. I realize the X-Men were created to serve as a parallel to the Civil Rights Movement and persecuted minorities in 1963, but on the other hand, we're not in 1963 anymore and, at the very least, I think it's reasonable enough to say that the world in 2019 isn't quite the same as it was in 1963.

Yes, there's still hatred in 2019. Yes, there's still racism in 2019. Yes, there's still scapegoating of groups of various backgrounds to the point of suffering in 2019. I'm not denying any of that. At the same time though, considering how there are quite a few successful celebrities of minority backgrounds, such as black actors, black athletes, black comedians, black musicians that are popular and beloved by the public by and large, as well as black politicians, and America in 2019 just being in a distinctly different place than how it was in 1963, all aspects considered overall and kept in mind, then I'd like to see a shake-up in the human/mutant dynamic in the series.

I'm definitely not saying to get rid of the minority persecution aspect of the series, as black celebrities don't always have it peachy keen either. I guess I just think that having a more "human-embracing" aspect towards mutants in addition would make for a more interesting shake-up in the current status quo, which at many times can seem to pigeonhole mutants as seemingly being only destined to suffer. As well as it how it help the series be more interestingly progressive rather than uninterestingly (and perhaps over-depressingly) regressive.

Fair enough, and you do make a good point about the mutant situation being depicted as if America, if not the world, hasn't evolved at all, or even regressed, on racial/ethnic issues since the 1960s. My point about the mutants being willing to fight against other mutants oppressing humans vis-à-vis the humans being seemingly unwilling to fight against other humans that are oppressing mutants was more towards another poster that cited Magneto, Mystique, and/or Apocalypse as possible in-universe justification and mitigation for the anti-mutant bigotry so widespread among the human population. I do agree, though, that humans being depicted as almost uniformly prejudiced against mutants to the point of willingness to countenance genocide is at this point extremely regressive, especially in terms of the X-Men's classic mission statement.

[pageturner]

Well at times the do. Thing and Spiderman have both been shunned/feared at times.

Although it is odd that Rockville and Thing are sometimes treated differently

[Huntsman Spider]

Well at times the do. Thing and Spiderman have both been shunned/feared at times.

Although it is odd that Rockville and Thing are sometimes treated differently

Technically, the Thing has a public identity and is part of a world-famous and beloved superhero family called the Fantastic Four, which Reed admitted privately to Valeria was engineered for the sake of making sure that his loved ones didn't end up shunned and hounded as "freaks" like the X-Men or even Spider-Man, even if he didn't mention them by name.

[Sandy Hausler]

Pre - 1963 - The only well known mutant was Namor, and unless there was some retconning... really there was ZERO anti-mutant talk
during the Invaders books.

I don't think it was known that Namor was a mutant until it was stated in his first appearance in The X-Men. In fact, I don't know if the general public knows that he is a mutant.