Mega Man (Classic) vs. Terminator

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Statements are well and good but feats are how we appraise things here.

[BitVyper]

Statements are well and good but feats are how we appraise things here.

Thought this was a response to me and I was about to go off talking about all the times I haven't died.

[BitVyper]

Dr Cain's journal flat out states that X's design and systems were a "quantum leap over anything the world had seen". Given how prominent robots like Mega Man were in Light's time, that right there should prove that X is not weaker than Mega Man. He is obviously meant to be superior to Mega Man in every way. Hell, even the X-Buster is listed with the model number of "Mega Buster mk 17"

And yes, Mega Man's strength is in his sense of justice, as is stated many times. But it's not like X is lacking in those ideals. Hell, the fact that he actually has a choice to choose his own path and he chooses to fight, despite his pacifist values should say everything. So while I can't find specific battles with non upgraded X from the X1 era that tout his superiority, I CAN say that he should be considered AT LEAST as powerful as Mega Man

Of course, I think I'd also be rather justified in saying that X8 era X would absolutely wreck anything Classic related, regardless of upgrades.

So first of all, that journal is apocrypha in an instruction manual. I'm fine with accepting it as canon, but again, "X's systems" does not actually tell us anything about X's literal physical strength. My car is a million times more advanced than an old dodge charger and will absolutely lose in a drag race to it every single time. As far as busters go, I'm actually totally fine with assuming the X buster is stronger than the Megabuster. At a basic level, they're pretty much the same visually in terms of what they do, and the X-Buster always had a better charge attack, so totally fine assuming that it's nebulously more powerful. X is still physically weaker than Megaman until he has some strength feats. And the X-Buster doesn't REALLY show its power until it's properly upgraded. And also again, "mk 17" doesn't necessarily mean it's more powerful (and we don't actually know what version of the Megabuster Megaman has, since the version number is never mentioned outside of that one instance). There's tons of possible design improvements that don't directly translate to linear increases in power.

For that matter, as I've already suggested, Megaman's entire career after Megaman 1 is built out of beating robots more advanced than himself.

And yeah totally, X has ideals. Lots of people have ideals. I'm not saying his ideals are weaker than Megaman's. But Megaman's ideals directly translate to power because of stylistic differences between the two series. Megaman lives in a world of very starkly divided black and white where choosing good is important. X lives in a world where the hard part is figuring out what good is; that's why every one of the early games ends with him staring off into the distance wondering how many more of his descendants he's going to have to kill and if what he's doing is right, and it's why X7 has him recusing himself from the fighting entirely. This is getting off topic though; the point is that the feats are what matter.

[Ultra_Sonic]

So first of all, that journal is apocrypha in an instruction manual. I'm fine with accepting it as canon, but again, "X's systems" does not actually tell us anything about X's literal physical strength. My car is a million times more advanced than an old dodge charger and will absolutely lose in a drag race to it every single time. As far as busters go, I'm actually totally fine with assuming the X buster is stronger than the Megabuster. At a basic level, they're pretty much the same visually in terms of what they do, and the X-Buster always had a better charge attack, so totally fine assuming that it's nebulously more powerful. X is still physically weaker than Megaman until he has some strength feats. And the X-Buster doesn't REALLY show its power until it's properly upgraded. And also again, "mk 17" doesn't necessarily mean it's more powerful (and we don't actually know what version of the Megabuster Megaman has, since the version number is never mentioned outside of that one instance). There's tons of possible design improvements that don't directly translate to linear increases in power.

For that matter, as I've already suggested, Megaman's entire career after Megaman 1 is built out of beating robots more advanced than himself.

And yeah totally, X has ideals. Lots of people have ideals. I'm not saying his ideals are weaker than Megaman's. But Megaman's ideals directly translate to power because of stylistic differences between the two series. Megaman lives in a world of very starkly divided black and white where choosing good is important. X lives in a world where the hard part is figuring out what good is; that's why every one of the early games ends with him staring off into the distance wondering how many more of his descendants he's going to have to kill and if what he's doing is right, and it's why X7 has him recusing himself from the fighting entirely. This is getting off topic though; the point is that the feats are what matter.

I get what you're saying.

On paper, X should be more powerful than Classic Mega Man due to his upgrades.

In practice (straight up feats), however-- X doesn't really have any feats to back up any of his claimed power, with the possible exception of tanking a poinit-blank ICBM explosion in his face (whether it was nuclear or not).

Classic Mega Man, however--for instance, if his battles in Mega Man 5 (Rockman World 5) are to be taken seriously (as I have seen the claims that he actually had to travel to other planets in our Solar System, one being Jupiter), he managed to survive the Reiche limits, gravitational pulls, AND Van Allen belts of various planets WITHOUT permanent damage.

[wjowski]

I'm sorry but I don't see how assuming Megaman X is at least as strong as Megaman when he was built by the same inventor and clearly based on the original Megaman model is some kind of inadmissible hyperbole, barring scenes from the X games where he's explicitly shown being weaker.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Thought this was a response to me and I was about to go off talking about all the times I haven't died.

That we know of !

[BitVyper]

I'm sorry but I don't see how assuming Megaman X is at least as strong as Megaman when he was built by the same inventor and clearly based on the original Megaman model is some kind of inadmissible hyperbole, barring scenes from the X games where he's explicitly shown being weaker.

Because he's a different character and there is literally no text saying that he has Megaman's physical strength, and multiple pieces of text saying that Megaman does things he shouldn't be able to do, and that the plot is that Megaman has been defying the limits of his design from day 1. And because we go by feats and this is trying to create a case for a character to have an ability based on a feat from another character in an entirely different series that is only loosely connected. He's a different character. He has his own feats. And there's solid evidence that, if you want to go by the robots being defined entirely by their design, weapons tech hasn't really improved between 199X and 200X, because every bot in 200X is, at a basic level, a replica of a bot designed in 199X, and keeps getting beaten by that bot. Also note that X1 still has the old style batbots that are still exactly as effective as they were in Megaman, and there's a tough miniboss in X1 that was built in the 199X-era. Dr. Light didn't build a war machine. Zero is a war machine, and look at the difference between him and X at the start of X1, and note that he was not built with anything Dr. Wily didn't have when he built King. Zero is monstrously beyond X using tech that was available in Megaman's era. Not even toward the end, as the games have gone well beyond Megaman and Bass now.

Also because this is rumbles. Like they're not even in the same series. Lightbots aren't Kryptonians where they all get some basic flying brick stats (and I'm pretty sure we don't assume every Kryptonian is exactly as strong as Superman either). The two series have major tonal and stylistic differences, so it doesn't make sense to assume all the same rules apply.

As I said before, every single robot Megaman beats after Megaman 1 had a superior design, progressively more and more superior until Wily literally made "Megaman 2.0" and pumped him full of evil cosmic energy (that was way more powerful than anything in either series and he never had access to again) and Megaman still beat that one. Design superiority means almost nothing here.

Edit: I don't even know why this has to be a thing. You guys know there ARE feats in the X series, right? Like the ceiling-lift is one of the few feats Megaman ever has in narrative, but the X series has way way more space to establish X's parameters.

Edit: Like this isn't like Light went out of his way to design a bot that would be more stronger than Megaman; we literally know that he was not maxing out on power when he built X. That's what Dr. Wily did, and the result was Zero, who blows the arm off a mecha X can't even hurt.

[BitVyper]

So like, if we slide X the ceiling lift, does it pass SvsFL? Megaman doesn't generally have a lot going on outside of the player-driven gameplay, so the ceiling lift is a standout for him, but like I said before, there's a lot more material in X's nine games to work from, so is any of it used to establish that the feat he doesn't have is within his parameters?

[bruceleegreyhulk]

So is this Classic Megaman with the Double Gear System from Mega Man 11?

[Nschornhorst]

I'm wondering if T-1000 stabs Mega Man, if he'd explode like he does when he hits the spikes/spike mine things in the game... He may be agile enough to avoid the Mega Buster. Of the Terminators, I'd think that one would have the best chance.

[Aura Blaize]

So like, if we slide X the ceiling lift, does it pass SvsFL? Megaman doesn't generally have a lot going on outside of the player-driven gameplay, so the ceiling lift is a standout for him, but like I said before, there's a lot more material in X's nine games to work from, so is any of it used to establish that the feat he doesn't have is within his parameters?

I was using X1 X because I figured "No Upgrades" would mean fresh out of the capsule. As such, while there's no feats that put him above Megaman, there's nothing that says he would be WEAKER either.

Honestly, that feat of Megaman holding up the ceiling is the only strength feat I know of in the series, outside of Super Arm. The games aren't really known for strength feats. Plus there isn't any official manga. I mean there's the Archie comics, but can we even consider those canon? Going by the games, there is nothing to suggest that X is weaker than Mega Man. Instead, the opposite is shown. If you would go by the latest version of Mega Man and the latest version of X, X is clearly superior.

Which means he should have no problem in this fight.

[Ultra_Sonic]

I was using X1 X because I figured "No Upgrades" would mean fresh out of the capsule. As such, while there's no feats that put him above Megaman, there's nothing that says he would be WEAKER either.

Honestly, that feat of Megaman holding up the ceiling is the only strength feat I know of in the series, outside of Super Arm. The games aren't really known for strength feats. Plus there isn't any official manga. I mean there's the Archie comics, but can we even consider those canon? Going by the games, there is nothing to suggest that X is weaker than Mega Man. Instead, the opposite is shown. If you would go by the latest version of Mega Man and the latest version of X, X is clearly superior.

Which means he should have no problem in this fight.

Actually, I was referring to his most recent incarnation, which does get a little tricky (after all, Biometal Model X doesn't count): as his most recent canonical appearance was Mega Man Zero 3 and his most prominent feat was hacking and shutting down multiple mind-controlled Reploids--however, he no longer had access to his physical body, as it was destroyed in the previous game. However, his most recent appearance with his full body intact was prior to the first Mega Man Zero game: he was forced to seal away the corrupted Mother Elf with his own body--which was after about a full century of X fighting Mavericks on his own.

[Aura Blaize]

Actually, I was referring to his most recent incarnation, which does get a little tricky (after all, Biometal Model X doesn't count): as his most recent canonical appearance was Mega Man Zero 3 and his most prominent feat was hacking and shutting down multiple mind-controlled Reploids--however, he no longer had access to his physical body, as it was destroyed in the previous game. However, his most recent appearance with his full body intact was prior to the first Mega Man Zero game: he was forced to seal away the corrupted Mother Elf with his own body--which was after about a full century of X fighting Mavericks on his own.

The only thing that sucks is that we don't know much about the Elf Wars. Though if Copy X is any indication, he's insanely strong at that point.