Why did Marvel pit mutants against inhumans?

[XPac]

I think things got out of hand when they blamed him for what the Dark Phoenix did in AVX. For some reason they wanted to make an example out of him, to later kill him and immediately resurrect him. And then they wanted Emma to become a villain for Marvel's Legacy renaissance, and use the inhumans as props for Cyclops death and Emma's villainy.

Honestly I think marvel realized how over Scott was becoming with a good percentage of the core fanbase from being treated as this pariah or whatever, so they just ran with it.

The problem was the execution, because most of the X-Men were overreacting to the whole thing. For the sake of believability they needed to either scale up Scotts actions, or scale back the X-Mens reaction to them, because their attitude towards their dead friend was pretty harsh. They figurately spat on his grave every chance they got. Inhumans or CHampions talking negatively about him is one thing... they barely knew him. But the X-Men were a different matter.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't think it's fair to judge a race or a nation based on the actions of their leaders. If you want to say that Black Bolt and Medusa are responsible for Cyclops' death and that it was intentional then I can understand it, even if I don't agree. It's a very slippery slope once blanket statements are used to discuss the actions of a few individuals. If we were to hold the masses accountable for the actions of their leaders then by that logic all Germans during World War 2 should be considered Nazis. Or if we want to talk comics, then humanity certainly has a right to hate and fear mutants, because the actions of Magneto and his Brotherhood should most certainly reflect on Xavier, the X-Men and all innocent mutants caught up in the struggle. Even though it is sometimes a subconscious reaction to lump everyone of a certain race or nationality or some other category together, it is unfair and dangerous and it's up to us as individuals and as a society to know better.

Also, you keep mentioning forced mass deportation. I really don't think that term applies in this case. The definition of deportation is "the removal from a country of an alien whose presence is unlawful or prejudicial". The Inhumans did not force the mutants to leave and they had a right to be on Earth. The mutants HAD to leave in order to survive if the clouds were not stopped. Deportation suggests intent that results in enforced removal of someone from a given location. Medusa had absolutely nothing to do with the release of the Terrigen and Black Bolt did not set off the T-bomb with the intent to eradicate mutants. Even though the Terrigen Bomb was intended to bolster the Inhumans' ranks, the whole thing started because Thanos showed up in Attilan and demanded a sacrifice of all the Inhuman children. Black Bolt as a monarch had a royal duty to protect his people, which he tried. His methods may have been extremely unorthodox and in the end quite harmful, but his intent, in my opinion, cannot be questioned.

Err, what? Wrong definition of deportation

"Expulsion is an act by a public authority to remove a person or persons against his or her will from the territory of that state. A successful expulsion of a person by a country is called a deportation."

Also, forced deportation is a fair description. It doesn't matter what was originally intended. The end result is what matters. Look no farther than what was done to Native Americans

When it was learned that the T-Cloud was fatal to mutants, Medusa and the inhumans still protected it, going so fa as 'kill' Cyclops.

The mutant's choice was 'leave or die', because the Inhumans were protecting the cloud. They protected it with a space ship, remember?

Yes, it's fair to judge a people by their leaders. They set policy. They make the important decisions. Also, duh. Maybe BB and Medusa didn't intend things to go the way they did, but they should have stopped long before they did. Intent is not the end all, be all, of law and morality

[Keyotheseasons]

Err, what? Wrong definition of deportation

"Expulsion is an act by a public authority to remove a person or persons against his or her will from the territory of that state. A successful expulsion of a person by a country is called a deportation."

Also, forced deportation is a fair description. It doesn't matter what was originally intended. The end result is what matters. Look no farther than what was done to Native Americans

When it was learned that the T-Cloud was fatal to mutants, Medusa and the inhumans still protected it, going so fa as 'kill' Cyclops.

The mutant's choice was 'leave or die', because the Inhumans were protecting the cloud. They protected it with a space ship, remember?

Yes, it's fair to judge a people by their leaders. They set policy. They make the important decisions. Also, duh. Maybe BB and Medusa didn't intend things to go the way they did, but they should have stopped long before they did. Intent is not the end all, be all, of law and morality

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deportation

I'm glad you think that the definition provided by the Meriam-Webster dictionary of deportation is wrong, but OK.

Once again, forced mass deportation is not the correct word for what happened and the Trail of Tears or the forced removal of the Native Americans from their lands is not comparable to this situation. The Inhumans did not gather up mutants and forcibly relocate them to a designated area. At best what happened to the mutants can be described as disaster-induced displacement, as there was no intended motive, violence or enforcement of "deportation".

Medusa and the Inhumans, as you say, couldn't have gone so far as to kill Cyclops to protect the cloud, because the conflict between them occurred after the destruction of the first cloud. How can you protect something that is already destroyed? The Inhumans were definitely ready to defend the second cloud and they did in the final altercation before Medusa willingly destroyed the Terrigen.

And the space ship you mentioned, the R.I.V, was not a war ship, but a means to collect Nuhumans affected by the cloud, bringing them to safety in Attilan if they chose to go. Of course it also had weapon capabilities, but it was primarily a transport. Later it was also used to collect and move mutants out of the way of the Terrigen upon the discovery that mutants were being harmed.

Please don't be condescending with your "duh". It's not fair to judge people by their leaders. As I said, is it fair to assume all Germans were Nazis during World War 2? Is it fair to assume all Muslims are terrorists? Are all Russians communists? The answer to all of those questions is no.

I think it's very clear that you and I have very different views on this comic event and also how things work in the real world, which is fine, but it is probably best to just agree to disagree as I foresee this discussion going in circles.

[Force de Phenix]

Err, what? Wrong definition of deportation

"Expulsion is an act by a public authority to remove a person or persons against his or her will from the territory of that state. A successful expulsion of a person by a country is called a deportation."

Also, forced deportation is a fair description. It doesn't matter what was originally intended. The end result is what matters. Look no farther than what was done to Native Americans

When it was learned that the T-Cloud was fatal to mutants, Medusa and the inhumans still protected it, going so fa as 'kill' Cyclops.

The mutant's choice was 'leave or die', because the Inhumans were protecting the cloud. They protected it with a space ship, remember?

Yes, it's fair to judge a people by their leaders. They set policy. They make the important decisions. Also, duh. Maybe BB and Medusa didn't intend things to go the way they did, but they should have stopped long before they did. Intent is not the end all, be all, of law and morality

You ignore the fact that the inhumans were expulsed from Earth in the 80's. And the way the comic was written wasn't like real life, so your arguement about policy doesn't work for a story with plotholes. Black Bolt set off the cloud to create an army against Thanos. He didn't mean to harm anyone. The inhumans didn't vote for the bomb detonation. He did what he thought was right and they made the cloud poisonous like pollution to inhumans.

It's a story, and it ended. They made an event to kill inhumans to help people feel like they got what they deserved and get revenge. And in Royals and Black Bolt, they paid for what they did.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You ignore the fact that the inhumans were expulsed from Earth in the 80's. And the way the comic was written wasn't like real life, so your arguement about policy doesn't work for a story with plotholes. Black Bolt set off the cloud to create an army against Thanos. He didn't mean to harm anyone. The inhumans didn't vote for the bomb detonation. He did what he thought was right and they made the cloud poisonous like pollution to inhumans.

It's a story, and it ended. They made an event to kill inhumans to help people feel like they got what they deserved and get revenge. And in Royals and Black Bolt, they paid for what they did.

I ignore that fact becaus mutants didn't force Inhumans from the planet. I ignore that fact because two rights don't make a wrong. I ignore that because for the longest time, Inhumans lived apart from from human society, and leaving earth was just an extension of their long standing isolationism.

When Black Bolt 'killed' Cyclops for destroying the T-cloud, knowing what it would do to mutants, he assumed responsibility for it. That Inhumans stood aside and allowed it to happen makes them at least somewhat culpable. They put their religious rites over mutant lives.

So bad guys.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deportation

I'm glad you think that the definition provided by the Meriam-Webster dictionary of deportation is wrong, but OK.

Once again, forced mass deportation is not the correct word for what happened and the Trail of Tears or the forced removal of the Native Americans from their lands is not comparable to this situation. The Inhumans did not gather up mutants and forcibly relocate them to a designated area. At best what happened to the mutants can be described as disaster-induced displacement, as there was no intended motive, violence or enforcement of "deportation".

You should look at history, the UN definition of genocide before burying yourself in a dictionary. Look up 'genocide', and when you do that, you'll see that forced deportation/mass displacement is listed as a means thereof.

Because of Inhuman actions in protecting the cloud, mutants were faced with a choice of leaving their home or dying. It's not comparable to disaster displacement, because the T-Cloud was artificially created and protected by the Inhumans. Not all threats are explicit, you know.

It was released by them, and because of the Inhumans carelessness, it became fatal to mutants. When one cloud was destroyed, Scott was killed and slandered by the Inhumans, who could accept mutant deaths so long as they kept their cultural rites.

You can't think of a historical justification for the Inhuman's actions, because there literally isn't one, that doesn't make them the villains. The Inhumans allowed others to lose their basic rights (IE, their lives) so that the Inhumans could enjoy certain privileges.

[Force de Phenix]

I ignore that fact becaus mutants didn't force Inhumans from the planet. I ignore that fact because two rights don't make a wrong. I ignore that because for the longest time, Inhumans lived apart from from human society, and leaving earth was just an extension of their long standing isolationism.

When Black Bolt 'killed' Cyclops for destroying the T-cloud, knowing what it would do to mutants, he assumed responsibility for it. That Inhumans stood aside and allowed it to happen makes them at least somewhat culpable. They put their religious rites over mutant lives.

So bad guys.

They were isolationist because the humans expulsed them from everywhere, even Earth. Almost all of their stories since the 60's have been about them being targeting somehow. Think of Attilan as Genosha/Krakoa. People are praising the X-Men escaping persecution now like the inhumans in Hickman's book.

The inhumans had no control, because they lost control, and at the end, they destroyed their rites and Terrigen to save mutant lives. So blame the writer for contradicting himself in the same story. And they ended up paying for any lives in Death of Inhumans, Royals, and Black Bolt. They were being punished in all those books.

[Keyotheseasons]

You should look at history, the UN definition of genocide before burying yourself in a dictionary. Look up 'genocide', and when you do that, you'll see that forced deportation/mass displacement is listed as a means thereof.

Because of Inhuman actions in protecting the cloud, mutants were faced with a choice of leaving their home or dying. It's not comparable to disaster displacement, because the T-Cloud was artificially created and protected by the Inhumans. Not all threats are explicit, you know.

It was released by them, and because of the Inhumans carelessness, it became fatal to mutants. When one cloud was destroyed, Scott was killed and slandered by the Inhumans, who could accept mutant deaths so long as they kept their cultural rites.

You can't think of a historical justification for the Inhuman's actions, because there literally isn't one, that doesn't make them the villains. The Inhumans allowed others to lose their basic rights (IE, their lives) so that the Inhumans could enjoy certain privileges.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

The definition of genocide I found on the UN website is as follows:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

a.Killing members of the group;
b.Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c.Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d.Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e.Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

None of those conditions apply to what happened in the events of DoX and IvX. Also, doing a search in the article yielded no results for forced deportation/mass displacement. Also, to get back to another point, as you can see by the bolded words in the definitions, intent most certainly plays a role.

In order to put this to rest, the UN also states this in regards to genocide:

"To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique."

Thusly, as defined by the UN the events of DoX and IvX would not be considered genocide.

In regards to referring to history to support my points, the examples that I listed fully support the question of whether or not you can judge a people by the actions of their leaders. I find it especially weird, that you discourage me from using historic justification when you a few posts up compared this comic event to the actual forced mass displacement of the Native Americans.

What further confuses me is that you think the way that the Native Americans were forced out of their homes and from their land is in any way comparable to the mutants plight in this series of books. No one was riding horses, herding the mutants together and physically forcing them to walk thousands of miles.

[The Cool Thatguy]

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

The definition of genocide I found on the UN website is as follows:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

a.Killing members of the group;
b.Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c.Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d.Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e.Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

None of those conditions apply to what happened in the events of DoX and IvX. Also, doing a search in the article yielded no results for forced deportation/mass displacement. Also, to get back to another point, as you can see by the bolded words in the definitions, intent most certainly plays a role.

In order to put this to rest, the UN also states this in regards to genocide:

"To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique."

Thusly, as defined by the UN the events of DoX and IvX would not be considered genocide.

In regards to referring to history to support my points, the examples that I listed fully support the question of whether or not you can judge a people by the actions of their leaders. I find it especially weird, that you discourage me from using historic justification when you a few posts up compared this comic event to the actual forced mass displacement of the Native Americans.

What further confuses me is that you think the way that the Native Americans were forced out of their homes and from their land is in any way comparable to the mutants plight in this series of books. No one was riding horses, herding the mutants together and physically forcing them to walk thousands of miles.

Ah, good, we're on the same page at least.

But you seem to be hung on overt intent, vs. passive intent.

The Inhumans knew that the cloud kills mutants. They killed one of the most well known mutants, after he destroyed one cloud and for no tactical reason. They continued to protect the cloud with a space ship. There's your intent right there.

It's like comic book white privilege. They say they don't want people to die, but they could have prevent it easily by giving up a privilege and protect the cloud/system that's slowly killing every mutant :P

For months, the Inhumans protected the cloud, despite knowing that it killed and sterilized a vulnerable ethnic minority. Like Separate but Equal, you can pretend that there's no active intent involved, but it's pretty damn easy to see if you scratch the surface.

And to a degree, you're right, with regards to Native Americans. It's a comparison I shouldn't use, as their suffering happened and the effects of which are still felt today. I will admit that it's tacky of me, at best.

But it's also apt. There used to be tens of millions of Native Americans on this continent and in the United States. But because of mass deportation, and sterilization programs that only ended in the 1970s, there are less than two million. Genocide doesn't always need an active campaign to be genocide. Just a slow, deliberate and focused whittling over time.

And comics, being what they are, what happened to mutants running from the cloud was worse. Native Americans at least got to stay on planet earth, with all it's bounty and infrastructure.

Mutants were forced to live in a barely tamed hell dimension. So yeah...

[Keyotheseasons]

Ah, good, we're on the same page at least.

But you seem to be hung on overt intent, vs. passive intent.

The Inhumans knew that the cloud kills mutants. They killed one of the most well known mutants, after he destroyed one cloud and for no tactical reason. They continued to protect the cloud with a space ship. There's your intent right there.

It's like comic book white privilege. They say they don't want people to die, but they could have prevent it easily by giving up a privilege and protect the cloud/system that's slowly killing every mutant :P

For months, the Inhumans protected the cloud, despite knowing that it killed and sterilized a vulnerable ethnic minority. Like Separate but Equal, you can pretend that there's no active intent involved, but it's pretty damn easy to see if you scratch the surface.

And to a degree, you're right, with regards to Native Americans. It's a comparison I shouldn't use, as their suffering happened and the effects of which are still felt today. I will admit that it's tacky of me, at best.

But it's also apt. There used to be tens of millions of Native Americans on this continent and in the United States. But because of mass deportation, and sterilization programs that only ended in the 1970s, there are less than two million. Genocide doesn't always need an active campaign to be genocide. Just a slow, deliberate and focused whittling over time.

And comics, being what they are, what happened to mutants running from the cloud was worse. Native Americans at least got to stay on planet earth, with all it's bounty and infrastructure.

Mutants were forced to live in a barely tamed hell dimension. So yeah...

Saying that the Inhumans used the R.I.V as a patrol ship to protect the clouds is a stretch. They followed the clouds, but their main agenda was not to protect them. They followed the clouds to deal with the aftermath of the terrigenisis of all the Nuhumans. I cannot recall that anyone in canon ever said that Crystal and her team in the R.I.V were to protect the clouds with a space ship out of fear of someone going after them. It was however stated that the ships were meant to transport Nuhumans and later mutants to get them to safety.

How were the Inhumans supposed to stop the clouds? Medusa's team didn't find any solutions to the Terrigen's negative effects. Beast was involved, hopefully eliminating any distrust that the Inhumans were simply withholding a solution. Both of the solutions to destroy the clouds was presented by the mutants and were never shared with the opposing faction until the climax of the book. Alchemy died as a result of him passing through the first cloud and Forge built the device with modifications by Moon Girl to destroy the second.

Hypothetically, had the Inhumans agreed to the destruction of the clouds right away after Alchemy's death there was no way to destroy the second cloud until Forge built his machine, which wasn't started or at least not completed until the assault on Attilan at the end of the event.

I do not think the comparison to the Native Americans is apt. The displacement of the Natives was intentional, planned and deliberately executed. The mutants were forced to leave Earth for their own survival. They were not forcefully relocated out of greed or malicous intent. It doesn't mean that Black Bolt shouldn't have to deal with the consequences that his actions unintentionally caused, but the motives between the two events is comepletely different. The T-bomb and its effects were negligence and the displacement of the Native Americans was greed and malice.

But there seem to be some key points in the conflict between the Inhuman and mutant race that we just don't see eye to eye on, which is fine. It probably means that we will not come to a mutual understanding regarding our views on this comic event. Luckily this conflict is a fictional one and no actual people had to suffer and it allows us the freedom to discuss our views without anyone needing to deal with real-world consequences.

[MyriVerse]

You know, that makes me wonder, why has Thor never had to deal with The Purifiers? They view mutants as devils and the embodiment of sin yet are perfectly fine with beings who call themselves gods running around. You’d think that would be the ultimate blasphemy to them.

Stryker aside, the truth is the Purifiers really aren't that grounded in religion. They're about keeping the bloodline pure. Asgardians or Olympians aren't seen as threats.

[Force de Phenix]

You know, that makes me wonder, why has Thor never had to deal with The Purifiers? They view mutants as devils and the embodiment of sin yet are perfectly fine with beings who call themselves gods running around. You’d think that would be the ultimate blasphemy to them.

Yet when Marvel decides to be coherent and have inhumans be attacked like mutants, people complain. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[WallStreeter]

There was never any intention of actually getting rid of the X-Men; that would have been financial suicide for the comics side of things. But further reducing their prominence and letting a lesser-known property ride off their relative popularity and take over their niche in the comics landscape would have been just fine. But some genius didn't get that when you put a fledgling concept up against a more popular one with an entrenched fanbase, things aren't likely to go well.

Yes. Claremont, among other X-Men writers said this. Then when various issues at Fox made Murdoch want to sell the entertainment division, Disney had a wonderful opportunity to regain all Marvel writers fully except for Spider Man. So they did and now the XMen are being rebooted/reimagined for the MCU itself.

[WallStreeter]

The Purifers know Thor would immediately kill them. That´s why they don´t screw with him. Too powerful. Likewise in XMen Red Jean got an audience at the UN and mutant hate groups did not bother her. This is the woman who blew up a planet. Cassandra Nova was afraid of her and mind controlled people to attack mutants in order to just basically upset Jean. People didn´t really get anti mutant until all the mutants that were afraid would easily kill them were gone (Jean, Storm, Magneto, etc).

[WallStreeter]

Come to think of it, the Purifers are too cowardly to ever attack any A list mutant villain like Apocalypse, Selene, Magneto, Exodus. Basically they are worthless, and of course they are not going to attack a team full of powerhouses like the Avengers. They target weaker mutants and XForce takes them down. All the Purifers are good for. Not even good enough to get the attention of the A list XMen.

[XPac]

Come to think of it, the Purifers are too cowardly to ever attack any A list mutant villain like Apocalypse, Selene, Magneto, Exodus. Basically they are worthless, and of course they are not going to attack a team full of powerhouses like the Avengers. They target weaker mutants and XForce takes them down. All the Purifers are good for. Not even good enough to get the attention of the A list XMen.

It's funny how the public rarely targets villains.

I remember in Civil War when that mob attacked the Human Torch for example. I'd like to see them try that with Carnage or Wrecker. It's easy to target meta's who in a lot of cases are nice enought not to fight back... or at least to hold back. I understand the logic of it... but there's quite a bit of hypocracy there.