Fans more Interested in Old DC than Current DC?

[BatmanJones]

Doesn't that have to do more with certain characters that just tend to sell more books than others at that point?

I mean, if DC or Marvel found out they could sell over 100,000 issues on a consistent basis featuring a black lesbian hero, or at least as much as much as Spider-Man's, Batman's, Hulk's, Superman's, and Wonder Woman's issues tend to sell, then they'd jump all over that too (and surely other such successful heroes) and try to make as much money with that hero as much as they possibly could, being the businesses that they are, wouldn't they?

Of course it does but I'm not telling anyone anything new by saying that's because the most popular characters were created at a time virtually all characters were cis-gender and white. There are nearly 80 years of history to overcome here but it's well worth the effort.

[iron chimp]

Of course it does but I'm not telling anyone anything new by saying that's because the most popular characters were created at a time virtually all characters were cis-gender and white. There are nearly 80 years of history to overcome here but it's well worth the effort.

They had both transvestite and transgender writers and characters nearly 30 years ago. No need to wait. It already happened.

[Electricmastro]

They had both transvestite and transgender writers and characters nearly 30 years ago. No need to wait. It already happened.

How would would you say the status of transvestite and transgender writers and characters in DC Comics is today, at least compared to the 1980s overall? Would you say it's pretty bad in 2019? Alright? Decent?

[Quasar's Bands]

For me, it's not about "studying" the past. It's about reading comics I enjoy. I bought a lot of comics in the 90s, and I'm rereading them now, after reading almost no comics in the last 15ish years. I'm enjoying most of them, including the ones I bought as back issues at the time, which date back to the 80s, 10 years before I started reading.

I looked online to see if there was anything I might be interested in buying today, and discovered that DC had rebooted, mutilated, or eliminated many of my favorite characters. If there were rave reviews for DC's recent work, I might still be willing to give some of their new stuff a try. But other than the occasional "This series is pretty good", I'm not seeing any excitement about any particular modern work, even from current readers. So why would I bother spending money on the new stuff that even current DC readers aren't excited about?

For now, I'm rereading my old collection, and very rarely picking up an issue or two from the back issue bins to fill in gaps in my collection. So far, I've bought exactly two issues in the last 3 months, and both of those were published in 1988. Once I'm done reading what I already own, I'll probably start buying stuff to add to my collection more regularly. But even then, I'm fairly certain I'll stick to buying old stuff. DC hasn't done anything in the last decade that I'm even remotely curious to check out.

You know, I really, really, really liked John's Geoff Johns' JSA. I had already been a comic collector for 20 years when JSA came out, and yet I was so excited to collect each and every issue. The stories were compelling, there were minority characters, a lot of female characters, and what I enjoyed MOST - there were Older, Younger, and much younger characters. Johns appreciated that a team book could appreciate that comic stories and ideas from the 40s -70s could be a hotbed of ideas and stories worth referencing and drawing from, while at the same time there could be new generations of heroes with their own stories and challenges. It is possibly some of the best comics writing I've seen from the 70s through the current day. It reminded me a little of the Avengers in the late 70s, early 80s when it would sometimes focus on individual team members, and sometimes on the bigger team-focused story line. It was also like the Marv Wolfman Titans of the 80s, with the same formula.

Now, if anyone is collecting Immortal Hulk, you know that is an excellent and incredible comic- I'd argue the best on the stands. It's a fresh and new spin using old characters with horror elements - just gripping. I realize one reason that Immortal Hulk, which is VERY different from Geoff Johns' JSA, the 80s Titans, or the late-70s Avengers, is so good is because ALL of these comics have something in common. They don't just throw away what came before - they HONOR what came before and create new and creative stories from what came before. They have character-driven stories which are pretty constant on the personality of those characters, and they devote time to both the individual characters as well as the bigger, overarching story lines. I firmly believe Waid's Flash in the early 2000s was the same. JSA and Titans were some of the best DC has ever offered, and sadly I would argue that NOTHING from DC currently on the stands today can compare.

That being said, Snyder's Batman was actually pretty good. I definitely was excited about the whole Court of Owls story line, as well as his treatment of the Joker. Again, one thing I appreciated was even through the Court of Owls was a NEW concept with NEW characters, it still drew in Dick Grayson and other Batman history and characters, so that it BOTH appreciated what came before and provided something new going forward. I loved Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin for the same reason - he took previously used elements and characters and expounded on them in new and creative ways. I thought that John's VIBE was going to do that as well - but it was ended too quickly.

I feel like the DC of the last 5 years (except for Snyder's Batman) has basically been a rejection of what came before and an attempt to reinvent things that weren't broken. How are existing fans supposed to appreciate that? We've followed along and understand these characters and their stories. Why not build on them rather than tear them apart? JSA was sooooo good because it kept all the old stuff, and with three generations of heroes it was able to introduce a bunch of new stuff and do it in a quality way. For those arguing that DC has never been "woke" enough - check out Johns' JSA, especially as it evolved over time to become even more diverse and interesting. It really is a shame he eventually left that title, because it was so consistently fantastic. DC needs more of that today, it really does.

[skyvolt2000]

How would would you say the status of transvestite and transgender writers and characters in DC Comics is today, at least compared to the 1980s overall? Would you say it's pretty bad in 2019? Alright? Decent?

Well first you have to know who they are.

As far as I know the first transgender writer at DC was Maddie Blaustein-who Pokemon fans knew as the voice or Meowth of Team Rocket. She was the first of at least 3 women to write Static as the regular writer. ANd she even did Milestone's Hardware.
She also did the Deathwish mini series that featured on of the first transgender characters.
She also did Impact's Legend of Shield and DC's Question Quarterly.

Most folks don't know that because her runs are NOT in trades.

Other than her I don't know of any other writers or creations that were either. I think it's better now because you have some willing to do the stories.

I mean, if DC or Marvel found out they could sell over 100,000 issues on a consistent basis featuring a black lesbian hero, or at least as much as much as Spider-Man's, Batman's, Hulk's, Superman's, and Wonder Woman's issues tend to sell, then they'd jump all over that too (and surely other such successful heroes) and try to make as much money with that hero as much as they possibly could, being the businesses that they are, wouldn't they?

LOGIC says yes. As long as you DON'T limit yourself to floppy sales as the judge.

Motor Crush was a book about a black Lesbian by the Batgirl Burnside team. Stores didn't want to sell it and OPENLY said it. Book comes out-sells out. It has two volumes and will now do OGNs. Volume one has a Barnes & Nobles variant cover for the trade.
Goldie Vance has 3 trades and 1 OGN. It has been optioned for a movie by Kerry Washington and Rashida Jones. I had no idea that girl was gay until volume 3.
Miles Morales's current writer-Saladin Ahmed did Abbot for Boom about a bi-sexual black reporter.
Crush had 12 issues, Goldie had 12. Abbot was a mini. 29 issues in all (not counting variants).
Trades wise they have done decent or very well on Amazon.

Reality say NO.

DC-who do you have? Natasha Irons? Who has been IRRELEVANT since Priest last wrote her in 2001. Thunder from Black Lightning? She has not been seen in now heading to year 10 of her being MIA.
Marvel has NO PROBLEM tossing a book out or something close to it. See Black Panther WOW. While it bombed as a floppy-it KILLED in trades BEFORE that movie had it's first trailer out.

Any money DC would make is OUTSIDE the direct market. Because that is where you audience is. You are going to see that when Aqualad's book comes out. Heck you are seeing it with Raven's. And that is actually a good thing. I mean it got Squirrel Girl a 50 issue run.

[skyvolt2000]

JSA was sooooo good because it kept all the old stuff, and with three generations of heroes it was able to introduce a bunch of new stuff and do it in a quality way. For those arguing that DC has never been "woke" enough - check out Johns' JSA, especially as it evolved over time to become even more diverse and interesting. It really is a shame he eventually left that title, because it was so consistently fantastic. DC needs more of that today, it really does.

NO LIES DETECTED HERE.

That was the book that got me interested in Johns.

That book was a blue print on HOW to do a team book right.

It also shows how good a writer can be when he's NOT using the A list squad and having too many cooks in the kitchen.

[kjn]

Of course it does but I'm not telling anyone anything new by saying that's because the most popular characters were created at a time virtually all characters were cis-gender and white. There are nearly 80 years of history to overcome here but it's well worth the effort.

This might be a nitpick, but it's an important one. What there is isn't nearly 80 years of history to overcome, but the perception of 80 years of history to overcome.

Saladin Ahmed pointed out in his article (linked in my previous post here) that the Golden Age was a lot more diverse than we give it credit for.

Once you remove the idea that the past cultural landscape was more oppressive or racist or same-y than today, and start to examine it by looking at the primary sources, things change markedly. The period before the CCA was hugely different from the period after it. Just as everyday racism or sexism is thousand small cuts and nudges, the same is true for how history is written: white men continuously gets small nudges upwards towards remembrance, others gets quietly written out.

[iron chimp]

How would would you say the status of transvestite and transgender writers and characters in DC Comics is today, at least compared to the 1980s overall? Would you say it's pretty bad in 2019? Alright? Decent?

For me the climate is far more conservative on floppies across the board from DC to Image to Independents than 30 years ago.

DC used to employ people that hated DC, acid heads, warlocks, occultists, "deviants", "freaks" and enough people showed up to buy their books - and also make some of them DCs most loved, most profitable, most reprinted work. Nearly all those readers and writers left decades ago for OGNs tho and they arent coming back.

If you have a "big" story about sexuality or what have you then you can just take it to OGN publisher have the whole thing published in one go, sold in bookshops, and reviewed by literary reviews rather than shoehorn your story into whatever DC characters are available to you and all the possible shenanigans that can happen with corporate serial publishing.

I dont understand or follow politics and comics so I dont know the debates but my impression is what ever a writer does hes just going to take a load of crap from everyone too as people start extrapolating corporate world views from just one character.

Say you have a story set in 1980s about a gay character. Your character has aids and likes to play Russian roulette with unprotected sex with either willing or unsuspecting partners. In a novel or OGN or film that's a character study set in deep subculture most of us know nothing about. In a DC comic today ... it's either typical negative portrayal of homosexuality by a homophobic corporate America or just pure filth that should be nowhere near publishers of superman. In all probability it's not getting published at all or if it does it's just going to create endless hassle so just take it to another medium.

It used to be government via proxy comics code that censored comics, now its "readers" themselves.

Rightly or wrongly that's how I see it and I'm sure dynamics are way more complicated than i "describe

[Quasar's Bands]

NO LIES DETECTED HERE.

That was the book that got me interested in Johns.

That book was a blue print on HOW to do a team book right.

It also shows how good a writer can be when he's NOT using the A list squad and having too many cooks in the kitchen.

Exactly. It WAS the blueprint on how to address a team and different generations of heroes. I also like the fact that GJ didn't shove a bunch of characters all at once that were minorities and new out of nowhere in a desire to diversify DC overnight, but instead he introduced more female and minority characters organically, as part of ongoing storylines, and we grew to know, love and care for them as much as the older, more established characters. That to me is the road DC should be taking, but New 52 instead drove right off the cliff and threw much of that away. I'm glad at least Mr. Terrific survived that car wreck of a decision by DC. Again, I feel like GJ tried to take that approach when he introduced Vibe IN the New 52, and I was really enjoying that comic, but DC didn't do enough to promote it and it died like so many other new titles.

[Electricmastro]

So, how do people here feel about these series' runs that started around 1960 and ended around 1986?

[babyblob]

So, how do people here feel about these series' runs that started around 1960 and ended around 1986?

I really loved them. I am reading each series from the start. Am on JL 151 Green Lantern 51 and Am going to start Flash in a couple weeks. I am just a huge fan of the older stuff. I wanted to start at the beginning of each hero before I read a lot of the newer stuff. I am going to be behind I understand that but the stores are a lot of fun. And it really lets me dive into the history of DC universe.

[Electricmastro]

I really loved them. I am reading each series from the start. Am on JL 151 Green Lantern 51 and Am going to start Flash in a couple weeks. I am just a huge fan of the older stuff. I wanted to start at the beginning of each hero before I read a lot of the newer stuff. I am going to be behind I understand that but the stores are a lot of fun. And it really lets me dive into the history of DC universe.

Cool. Also, I suppose I might as well list DC's series that started in the 1980s since that's the thread's main subject matter:

DC Special Blue Ribbon Digest 1980-1982
New Adventures of Superboy 1980-1984
New Teen Titans 1980-1988
Untold Legend of the Batman 1980-1980
All-Star Squadron 1981-1987
Arak, Son of Thunder 1981-1985
Marvel Treasury Edition 1981
Secrets of the Legion of Super-Heroes 1981-1981
Tales of the Green Lantern Corps 1981-1981
Camelot 3000 1982-1985
Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew 1982-1983
Daring New Adventures of Supergirl 1982-1984
Fury of Firestorm 1982-1990
Marvel and DC Present 1982
Night Force 1982-1983
Phantom Zone 1982-1982
Swamp Thing 1982-1996
Tales of the New Teen Titans 1982-1982
Amethyst, Princess of Gemworld 1983-1984
Batman and the Outsiders 1983-1987
DC Graphic Novel 1983-1986
Omega Men 1983-1986
Ronin 1983-1984
Sword of the Atom 1983-1983
Vigilante 1983-1988
Atari Force 1984-1985
Blue Devil 1984-1986
Infinity Inc. 1984-1988
Legion of Super-Heroes 1984-1989
New Gods 1984-1984
New Talent Showcase 1984-1985
New Teen Titans 1984-1996
Star Trek 1984-1988
Super Powers 1984-1984
Ambush Bug 1985-1985
America Vs. the Justice Society 1985-1985
Amethyst 1985-1986
Crisis on Infinite Earths 1985-1986
Outsiders 1985-1988
Super Powers 1985-1986
Aquaman 1986-1986
Batman:The Dark Knight 1986-1986
Blue Beetle 1986-1988
Booster Gold 1986-1988
Deadman 1986-1986
Last Days of the Justice Society Special 1986
Legends 1986-1987
Man of Steel 1986-1986
Oz-Wonderland Wars 1986-1986
Secret Origins 1986-1990
Shadow 1986-1986
Son of Ambush Bug 1986-1986
Teen Titans Spotlight 1986-1988
Watchmen 1986-1987
Batman:Son of the Demon 1987
Captain Atom 1987-1991
Demon 1987-1987
Doc Savage 1987-1988
Doom Patrol 1987-1995
Flash 1987-2009
Green Arrow:The Longbow Hunters 1987-1987
History of the DC Universe 1987-1987
Justice League 1987-1996
Phantom Stranger 1987-1988
Question 1987-1990
Suicide Squad 1987-1992
Superman 1987-2006
Wasteland 1987-1989
Wonder Woman 1987-2006
World of Krypton 1987-1988
Animal Man 1988-1995
Batgirl Special 1988
Batman:The Cult 1988-1988
Batman:The Killing Joke 1988
Black Orchid 1988-1989
Checkmate 1988-1991
Christmas with the Super-Heroes 1988-1989
Cinder and Ashe 1988-1988
Cosmic Odyssey 1988-1988
Deadshot 1988-1988
Green Arrow 1988-1998
Hawk and Dove 1988-1988
Hellblazer 1988-2013
Invasion 1988-1989
Manhunter 1988-1990
Millennium 1988-1988
Prisoner 1988-1989
Starman 1988-1992
Star Trek:The Next Generation 1988-1988
V For Vendetta 1988-1989
Weird 1988-1988
Wrath of the Spectre 1988-1988
Aquaman 1989-1989
Arkham Asylum 1989
Batman:Legends of the Dark Knight 1989-2007
Batman:The Official Comic Adaptation 1989
Beautiful Stories For Ugly Children 1989-1992
Catwoman 1989-1989
Deadman:Love After Death 1989-1990
Epicurus the Sage 1989-1991
Green Lantern:Emerald Dawn 1989-1990
Gregory 1989-1993
Hawkworld 1989-1989
Justice League Europe 1989-1994
L.E.G.I.O.N. 1989-1994
Legion of Super-Heroes 1989-2000
Mister Miracle 1989-1991
Sandman 1989-1996
Skreemer 1989-1989
Star Trek 1989-1996
Star Trek:The Next Generation 1989-1996

[Crazy Diamond]

It might be old news at this point, but I came across this a few days ago and thought it might be worth discussing: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/07...-dc-publishes/

In Dan Didio's words:



So, what do you think is the takeaway from this? Why do you think there appears to be more interest in classic DC than in the current output from DC?

When Dan Didio talks about stories from 30 to 40 years ago, which stories are being referred to? I don't think people are going out to seek say random issues of Superman (lovely Lopez-Garcia artwork aside) but they may be checking out books like Superman: Speeding Bullets. Or Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? Or Death and Return of Superman. Those stories were new and novel for their time and with great artwork to go with it. Where is the innovative storytelling at DC today?

The last books that really got my attention were during the New 52 and that was stuff like Dial H for Hero, Right State, Federal Bureau of Physics, and Saucer County. Those books didn't get a lot of promotion from DC and when you have someone like Didio basically crapping on Vertigo as being books only for 40 year olds while talking about one of his greatest achievements being the return of Barry Allen and Hal Jordan that to me showed what DC's direction was going to be so long as he and others like him stuck around.

I've said this before, but I think what hurts (and has hurt) DC today is the management more than anything. Whatever criticisms people had of Dick Giordano and Jeanette Kahn from reading interviews and the books put out under their watch you got the impression that they saw comics as a medium and that even with superheroes there were many different kinds of stories you could tell with them. With Dan Didio and those who think like him they see comics as a genre, that genre is superheroes, and they have to be written in a particular manner (i.e can't be happy, must be self-serious, constant worship of the past and crapping on your present). So that mindset took over DC shortly after 2002 and with that came the gradual erosion of imprints like Vertigo and the death on arrival of imprints like Zuda Comics. As a teenager it came off like DC was saying "we don't care about younger readers" and after the same stuff eventually happened after the New 52 petered out I decided to just keep on moving. I was already used to reading comics from other publishers going back to Archie Comics w/ Sonic along with manga and collections of strips like Calvin and Hobbes so I knew there was more to comics than what DC was putting out but now there's so many more options so I can see why newer fans would chose to skip superheroes entirely. Besides, they can play the games (ex. Injustice, Arkham series) and watch the cartoons and movies.

The main advantage of the comics was that they had the time to build up stories in a way that you couldn't do in a 2 hour movie or a series limited to a few seasons or a 60 hour (max) game. But if the comics aren't better than the alternatives, why would a younger fan or newer fan bother? Watching Batman: TAS and then reading the beginning of Knightfall or Dark Knight Returns was like night and day.

[Lee Stone]

Cool. Also, I suppose I might as well list DC's series that started in the 1980s since that's the thread's main subject matter:

DC Special Blue Ribbon Digest 1980-1982
New Adventures of Superboy 1980-1984
New Teen Titans 1980-1988
Untold Legend of the Batman 1980-1980
All-Star Squadron 1981-1987
Arak, Son of Thunder 1981-1985
Marvel Treasury Edition 1981
Secrets of the Legion of Super-Heroes 1981-1981
Tales of the Green Lantern Corps 1981-1981
Camelot 3000 1982-1985
Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew 1982-1983
Daring New Adventures of Supergirl 1982-1984
Fury of Firestorm 1982-1990
Marvel and DC Present 1982
Night Force 1982-1983
Phantom Zone 1982-1982
Swamp Thing 1982-1996
Tales of the New Teen Titans 1982-1982
Amethyst, Princess of Gemworld 1983-1984
Batman and the Outsiders 1983-1987
DC Graphic Novel 1983-1986
Omega Men 1983-1986
Ronin 1983-1984
Sword of the Atom 1983-1983
Vigilante 1983-1988
Atari Force 1984-1985
Blue Devil 1984-1986
Infinity Inc. 1984-1988
Legion of Super-Heroes 1984-1989
New Gods 1984-1984
New Talent Showcase 1984-1985
New Teen Titans 1984-1996
Star Trek 1984-1988
Super Powers 1984-1984
Ambush Bug 1985-1985
America Vs. the Justice Society 1985-1985
Amethyst 1985-1986
Crisis on Infinite Earths 1985-1986
Outsiders 1985-1988
Super Powers 1985-1986
Aquaman 1986-1986
Batman:The Dark Knight 1986-1986
Blue Beetle 1986-1988
Booster Gold 1986-1988
Deadman 1986-1986
Last Days of the Justice Society Special 1986
Legends 1986-1987
Man of Steel 1986-1986
Oz-Wonderland Wars 1986-1986
Secret Origins 1986-1990
Shadow 1986-1986
Son of Ambush Bug 1986-1986
Teen Titans Spotlight 1986-1988
Watchmen 1986-1987
Batman:Son of the Demon 1987
Captain Atom 1987-1991
Demon 1987-1987
Doc Savage 1987-1988
Doom Patrol 1987-1995
Flash 1987-2009
Green Arrow:The Longbow Hunters 1987-1987
History of the DC Universe 1987-1987
Justice League 1987-1996
Phantom Stranger 1987-1988
Question 1987-1990
Suicide Squad 1987-1992
Superman 1987-2006
Wasteland 1987-1989
Wonder Woman 1987-2006
World of Krypton 1987-1988
Animal Man 1988-1995
Batgirl Special 1988
Batman:The Cult 1988-1988
Batman:The Killing Joke 1988
Black Orchid 1988-1989
Checkmate 1988-1991
Christmas with the Super-Heroes 1988-1989
Cinder and Ashe 1988-1988
Cosmic Odyssey 1988-1988
Deadshot 1988-1988
Green Arrow 1988-1998
Hawk and Dove 1988-1988
Hellblazer 1988-2013
Invasion 1988-1989
Manhunter 1988-1990
Millennium 1988-1988
Prisoner 1988-1989
Starman 1988-1992
Star Trek:The Next Generation 1988-1988
V For Vendetta 1988-1989
Weird 1988-1988
Wrath of the Spectre 1988-1988
Aquaman 1989-1989
Arkham Asylum 1989
Batman:Legends of the Dark Knight 1989-2007
Batman:The Official Comic Adaptation 1989
Beautiful Stories For Ugly Children 1989-1992
Catwoman 1989-1989
Deadman:Love After Death 1989-1990
Epicurus the Sage 1989-1991
Green Lantern:Emerald Dawn 1989-1990
Gregory 1989-1993
Hawkworld 1989-1989
Justice League Europe 1989-1994
L.E.G.I.O.N. 1989-1994
Legion of Super-Heroes 1989-2000
Mister Miracle 1989-1991
Sandman 1989-1996
Skreemer 1989-1989
Star Trek 1989-1996
Star Trek:The Next Generation 1989-1996

Nice list.

Adding:

Krypton Chronicles 1981-1981
Arion, Lord of Atlantis 1982-1985
Thriller 1983-1984
Shadow War of Hawkman 1985-1985
Hawkman 1986-1987
Dr. Fate 1987-1987
Spectre 1987-1989
Dr. Fate 1988-1992
Power Girl 1988-1988

[Jim Kelly]

What? No love for Angel Love or 'Mazing Man or Nathaniel Dusk or Silverblade?