Fans more Interested in Old DC than Current DC?

[BatmanJones]

What I find interesting, is that the people who want/like/defend woke comics would be crying bloody murder if the comics had right wing agendas or were pro-Trump. There would be cries of racism, homophobia, and whatever else all over the place, and calls to boycott everywhere (actually, I already see enough of this). And I say this as someone who doesn't really have a dog in that fight. The only thing I'm really interested in here is good comics. Why I'm saying this is to hopefully give some people some perspective. Take how you feel about getting right wing agendas rammed at you in your entertainment, and apply it here. How you might feel is probably kind of like how some others feel when confronted with this onslaught of blatantly woke books and characters.

In a thread about old comics vs. new comics this is a pretty shocking thing to read.

Remember we're talking about a medium in which upwards of 95% of major characters are still cis-gender white people.

Being "woke" means recognizing that systemic racism, misogyny, homophobia, and other bigotries have dominated our culture and our lives literally forever, that they continue to do so, and that that has to end.

If there's anything about old comics vs. new comics that should be entirely uncontroversial, it's that.

Over the 80 years DC has been publishing superhero comics, people of color have hardly ever had superheroes to read about that look like they do. They still hardly do.

Until disturbingly recently, the few female superheroes around have been almost exclusively depicted as sex symbols, to put it mildly. Wonder Woman only recently upgraded from a skimpy swimsuit to a skirt. Even Robin the Boy Wonder has been retconned from fighting crime in his bare legs (as a child), but the most distinguished, respected adult woman superhero still shows her underwear every time she fights or the wind blows.

Gay superheroes have only recently become at all accepted or acceptable. We're still not there with trans characters or non-binary ones, even if one or two characters have begun to emerge over the last 1-2 years.

For between 30-45 out of 80 years of DC Comics history the only time we saw superheroes or comic characters of color, they were offensive stereotypes.

For nearly 70 out of 80 years the same was true of LGBT heroes.

These things have hardly BEGUN to change in the ways they need to.

That's what being "woke" means. It's not the province of a political ideology or party. It's a moral imperative.

[JackDaw]

There's also, way, way much MORE old DC than current DC.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That’s the biggest single factor for me.

Among the vast old output are some poor comics, a ton of okay comics, some very good comics, and a smaller amount of really superb material.

Nowadays, I don’t read that many comics..so I just concentrate on the very good or really superb material...at that “top” level, most of the material was published years ago, rather than coming out this year.

It’s no different to other forms of literature...nobody expects many really great novels to come out in any particular year....the back catalogue from ALL past years is always going to be stronger than current year output.

[Vampire Savior]

In a thread about old comics vs. new comics this is a pretty shocking thing to read.

Remember we're talking about a medium in which upwards of 95% of major characters are still cis-gender white people.

Being "woke" means recognizing that systemic racism, misogyny, homophobia, and other bigotries have dominated our culture and our lives literally forever, that they continue to do so, and that that has to end.

If there's anything about old comics vs. new comics that should be entirely uncontroversial, it's that.

Over the 80 years DC has been publishing superhero comics, people of color have hardly ever had superheroes to read about that look like they do. They still hardly do.

Until disturbingly recently, the few female superheroes around have been almost exclusively depicted as sex symbols, to put it mildly. Wonder Woman only recently upgraded from a skimpy swimsuit to a skirt. Even Robin the Boy Wonder has been retconned from fighting crime in his bare legs (as a child), but the most distinguished, respected adult woman superhero still shows her underwear every time she fights or the wind blows.

Gay superheroes have only recently become at all accepted or acceptable. We're still not there with trans characters or non-binary ones, even if one or two characters have begun to emerge over the last 1-2 years.

For between 30-45 out of 80 years of DC Comics history the only time we saw superheroes or comic characters of color, they were offensive stereotypes.

For nearly 70 out of 80 years the same was true of LGBT heroes.

These things have hardly BEGUN to change in the ways they need to.

That's what being "woke" means. It's not the province of a political ideology or party. It's a moral imperative.

It's probably the most ironic thing in the world that you're actually saying this stuff to me.

Here's what I would like you to do. Point out to me where I've said publishers shouldn't have female, gay, or whatever heroes. Please do that, because it seems you're addressing me as if I said such a thing.

Having a gay, woman, or whatever hero does not mean you need to bash people over the head with your politics. Also, if they are going to have these non white guy heroes, it would be good if the companies put more into many of these characters besides changing the surface traits of the person wearing an identity that was used originally by a white character, and also writing them as vapid Mary Sues. Because when you do stuff like that, it looks like you're more interested in virtue signaling than actually making worthwhile characters. And I don't care how honorable wokeness is, in this setting it should NOT come before telling an engrossing story with excellent characters. Some of these creators seem to be more interested in demonstrating how woke they are instead of actually putting out great content.

[BatmanJones]

I'm not saying anything to or about you personally, Vampire Savior. I'm responding to the idea that being "woke" is political. It isn't. That's all.

[BatmanJones]

p.s. Inclusion/diversity/equity and great storytelling are in no way mutually exclusive. That's a false dichotomy.

Again, nothing to do with you. I don't know you and I don't make personal attacks of any sort, here or anywhere. I'm responding to the false notions that I/D/E are political or that they come at the expense of good storytelling.

This issue isn't about you (even though you raised it) and my posts aren't either. Peace.

[kjn]

Over the 80 years DC has been publishing superhero comics, people of color have hardly ever had superheroes to read about that look like they do. They still hardly do.

Great rant!

But I must quibble a bit with that comics have always been rather white and male. Saladin Ahmed wrote a great article a few years ago about that: How Censors Killed The Weird, Experimental, Progressive Golden Age Of Comics. And over in the CBR community forum we had a great thread about Golden Age superheroines that weren't created by DC or Marvel.

[iron chimp]

Or you could just acknowledge the existence of comics DC put out by a trans writer featuring a whole range of sexualities or the work of Peter Milligan et al 30 years ago.

[Vampire Savior]

I'm not saying anything to or about you personally, Vampire Savior. I'm responding to the idea that being "woke" is political. It isn't. That's all.

Well, it seems that at least some people out in the world disagree with you.

"Woke as a political term of African American origin refers to a perceived awareness of issues concerning social justice and racial justice.[1] It is derived from the African-American Vernacular English expression "stay woke","
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

Figurative woke—being socially and politically awake, or aware—starts in emerging in Black English at least by the 1940s. A 1943 article in The Atlantic quoted a black United Mine Workers official from 1940 playing with woke in a metaphor for social justice: “Waking up is a damn sight than going to sleep, but we’ll stay woke up longer.”
Https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/woke/

This is with a very basic google search. I'm sure I can present way more examples, but I'm on my phone right now and it's kind of inconvenient doing this at the moment.

[Electricmastro]

Remember we're talking about a medium in which upwards of 95% of major characters are still cis-gender white people.

Doesn't that have to do more with certain characters that just tend to sell more books than others at that point?

I mean, if DC or Marvel found out they could sell over 100,000 issues on a consistent basis featuring a black lesbian hero, or at least as much as much as Spider-Man's, Batman's, Hulk's, Superman's, and Wonder Woman's issues tend to sell, then they'd jump all over that too (and surely other such successful heroes) and try to make as much money with that hero as much as they possibly could, being the businesses that they are, wouldn't they?

[kjn]

Doesn't that have to do more with certain characters that just tend to sell more books than others at that point?

I mean, if DC or Marvel found out they could sell over 100,000 issues on a consistent basis featuring a black lesbian hero, or at least as much as much as Spider-Man's, Batman's, Hulk's, Superman's, and Wonder Woman's issues tend to sell, then they'd jump all over that too (and surely other such successful heroes) and try to make as much money with that hero as much as they possibly could, being the businesses that they are, wouldn't they?

Sales matter, of course, but it's not the only one. From what I understand, the Poison Ivy mini-series Cycle of Life and Death sold rather well, but didn't get a continuation. You also have to consider the following factors:

How strong and effective a marketing effort DC puts into it. DC obviously knows how to sell to white dudes; I'm not sure yet they've learnt how to sell to black women.

How comfortable DC's editors are with different characters. Even if a title sells decently, if they are uncomfortable with a character or a writer it can always be rationalised away: the writer was hard to work with, it was just chance, the new pitch wasn't as good or as interesting, we got a better pitch from another writer or another character.

For all that markets and capitalists say they are about as focused on business and profit, it's often a thin veneer over gut feelings, biases, intuition, and prejudices.

Now, sometimes you hit the market good enough that the people at every level has to sit up and take notice. But it doesn't happen often. Ms Marvel is probably the only example in recent times, and from what I understand the floppies weren't enough there (even though they reached a wholly new audience): it was the trades that kept her going.

[Electricmastro]

Sales matter, of course, but it's not the only one. From what I understand, the Poison Ivy mini-series Cycle of Life and Death sold rather well, but didn't get a continuation. You also have to consider the following factors:

How strong and effective a marketing effort DC puts into it. DC obviously knows how to sell to white dudes; I'm not sure yet they've learnt how to sell to black women.

How comfortable DC's editors are with different characters. Even if a title sells decently, if they are uncomfortable with a character or a writer it can always be rationalised away: the writer was hard to work with, it was just chance, the new pitch wasn't as good or as interesting, we got a better pitch from another writer or another character.

For all that markets and capitalists say they are about as focused on business and profit, it's often a thin veneer over gut feelings, biases, intuition, and prejudices.

Now, sometimes you hit the market good enough that the people at every level has to sit up and take notice. But it doesn't happen often. Ms Marvel is probably the only example in recent times, and from what I understand the floppies weren't enough there (even though they reached a wholly new audience): it was the trades that kept her going.

Yeah, it's surely not as simple as "let's put some black characters here, some gay characters," and suddenly everything's better, is it?

Speaking of black women, worth noting is that Vixen starred in her own miniseries back in 2008, though I'm not sure how well it sold and why there weren't many other series starring her.

[Zero Hunter]

You know with the evidence that people want to read more older material I wish DC would put out some of the stuff people have been asking about for years. Almost the entire "baxter" series Legion of Superheroes series by Levitz has never been collected except for the first years worth of issues, and that was a long time ago. That leaves almost 50 issues uncollected. Same goes for Giffen's "5 Year Latter..." Legion of Superheroes run which has never been collected.

[skyvolt2000]

Yeah, it's surely not as simple as "let's put some black characters here, some gay characters," and suddenly everything's better, is it?

Speaking of black women, worth noting is that Vixen starred in her own miniseries back in 2008, though I'm not sure how well it sold and why there weren't many other series starring her.

It was suppose to be 6 issues and had one axed..

Doesn't that have to do more with certain characters that just tend to sell more books than others at that point?

A lot of different factors go into it.

I can MAKE YOU like those guys if i do this -CONSISTENT USAGE. Lets use Batman-no one has had problem accessing a Batman book be it if they paid cover price, bin price, got is a grab bag, blind long box deal or the library. Some how or someway Dc will get MONEY off of him. And NO ONE will fight it.
Even if Batman fails-there is a line READY to build him back up with ZERO objections.

Others don't have that. Others will NEVER get that with certain folks in charge. Others will NEVER get that no matter how successful they are in other medias. Other will never get that shot no matter what the COMPETITION does.

Having a gay, woman, or whatever hero does not mean you need to bash people over the head with your politics.

QUESTION how is that being DONE? Right now we see more of "We don't want them in books or existing" versus what goes on in the BOOK complaints.
No one can point it out with actually page references.

[Electricmastro]

It was suppose to be 6 issues and had one axed..

I see. Hope Vixen doesn't get more unfortunate circumstances in getting more solo series then. That's quite the difference in comparison to another black DC hero like Cyborg, whose second volume in his solo series lasted for 23 issues.

[kurenai24]

Yeah, it's surely not as simple as "let's put some black characters here, some gay characters," and suddenly everything's better, is it?

Speaking of black women, worth noting is that Vixen starred in her own miniseries back in 2008, though I'm not sure how well it sold and why there weren't many other series starring her.

Idk either, this was never advertised, just like the SDCC special about her wasn't advertised last year either, only the writer and the Zoo giving away the books tweeted about it, but DC never did.