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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comic-Reader Lad View Post
    Yes, there were always politics and agendas of a sort in comics. However, they weren't always this polarizing.
    That’s because the American public (and politics I suppose) has become more bipartisan over time, which is a disturbing trend that reflects in the reception to various politics inserted into comics. Hell, look at the supposedly “polarising politics” now and tell me they don’t sound ridiculous
    Last edited by Rrobin; 08-03-2019 at 07:18 PM.

  2. #77
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comic-Reader Lad View Post
    Yes, there were always politics and agendas of a sort in comics. However, they weren't always this polarizing.

    Using comics as anti-fascist/pro-freedom propaganda, especially once the US entered World War II, isn't exactly walking a tightrope without a net.

    Likewise, an anti-drug story wouldn't generate backlash. Anti-War stories and imagery in the late 60s & early 70s would have been readily accepted by most of the comics age audience at the time.

    However, in today's comics that go political, there tends to be a lot of differing reactions among the readership. Maybe that's because today's comics readers are older and have had more years to form their private political opinions. Therefore, they're more likely to notice when a writer is shoehorning his or her own political opinions into the stories, or worse, using established characters as mouthpieces for the writer's political views.
    I get the feeling the accusation of "readers don't like these new comics because they hate politics and are racist, sexist, etc." is largely unwarranted.

    I mean, can anyone explain to me why 1980s stories like The Dark Knight Returns are so praised and widely remembered to this day despite containing politics?

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 08-03-2019 at 07:33 PM.

  3. #78
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    People generally aren't turning to mainstream comics to be preached to about what they should and shouldn't think regarding sensitive political and social issues (I know I certainly am not), and that's what a lot of woke comics are doing these days. They're also pushing certain characters because of their surface traits, and there isn't a whole lot to the characters or their world besides those surface traits. Thus, you wind up with vapid characters that few readers really like but that keep getting pushed because of wokeness. It also doesn't help that these characters tend to be Mary Sue's because the people writing them want to display these characters as ultimate, I guess as a way of making up for decades and decades of characters with those surface traits behind shunted to the side in stories. And when you replace a beloved character with one of these types? My goodness...

    This is, understandably, affecting some people's enjoyment of some of these company's output.

  4. #79
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrobin View Post
    That’s because the American public (and politics I suppose) has become more bipartisan over time, which is a disturbing trend that reflects in the reception to various politics inserted into comics. Hell, look at the supposedly “polarising politics” now and tell me they don’t sound ridiculous
    It is indeed ridiculous, the climate is so hostile now due to social media and the rapid spread of misinformation.
    Reading list: Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Ironheart (Marvel), Champions (Marvel), Jessica Jones: Purple Daughter (Marvel), Runaways (Marvel), Young Justice (DC), Naomi (DC), Justice League Odyssey (DC), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Bitter Root (Image), Quincredible (Lionforge), Buffy the Vampire Slayer Reboot (BOOM!)

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    For me, my reading tastes have changed. I tend to gravitate towards smaller characters and teams now. I like the LSH, the JSA, and im looking forward to them returning, newer books just don't grab me all that much, save for Morrison on Green Lantern and the Martian Manhunter series.

    I loved New Super-Man and Levitz's Doctor Fate, I thought they were pretty good fleshed out characters, so of course they got the axe.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comic-Reader Lad View Post
    Yes, there were always politics and agendas of a sort in comics. However, they weren't always this polarizing.

    Using comics as anti-fascist/pro-freedom propaganda, especially once the US entered World War II, isn't exactly walking a tightrope without a net.
    I'm pretty sure pre USA entry into WW2 anti Hitler comics ended up with a big protest outside of Timely (or another company) from Americans who wanted to stay out of the war. I think it might have been a Kirby comic that caused the demonstration.

  7. #82
    Spectacular Member Fromper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron chimp View Post
    I'm pretty sure pre USA entry into WW2 anti Hitler comics ended up with a big protest outside of Timely (or another company) from Americans who wanted to stay out of the war. I think it might have been a Kirby comic that caused the demonstration.
    That would be Captain America, who was shown punching out Hitler on the cover of his #1 issue, a full year before the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
    Just re-reading my old collection, filling in the occasional gap with back issues, not buying anything new.

    Currently working my way through 1990's Flash, Impulse, and JLA, and occasional other related stuff.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    People generally aren't turning to mainstream comics to be preached to about what they should and shouldn't think regarding sensitive political and social issues (I know I certainly am not), and that's what a lot of woke comics are doing these days. They're also pushing certain characters because of their surface traits, and there isn't a whole lot to the characters or their world besides those surface traits. Thus, you wind up with vapid characters that few readers really like but that keep getting pushed because of wokeness. It also doesn't help that these characters tend to be Mary Sue's because the people writing them want to display these characters as ultimate, I guess as a way of making up for decades and decades of characters with those surface traits behind shunted to the side in stories. And when you replace a beloved character with one of these types? My goodness...

    This is, understandably, affecting some people's enjoyment of some of these company's output.
    So, what characters are you specifically talking about?

    Besides, I think it’s unfair to criticise new characters for being pushed, they need that push to establish more traits or a larger supporting cast to cement themselves in the world. DC has been quite disappointing in this regard imo, for the new age of heroes (silencer etc.), the stories were actually pretty good but got next to no appearances in other books or advertisement at all, so it naturally shows in the sales. I really liked New Superman and the Chinese JL but they didn’t stick around at all, and it’s a damn shame
    Last edited by Rrobin; 08-04-2019 at 12:20 AM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadeb View Post
    I just watched the Titans show, and it reminded me very much of the highs and lows of DC’s current print output: There were some interesting ideas, and I liked that it could tackle adult themes, but all the murder, violence and sheer unpleasantness eventually made it a slog. By the time they brought in child sex abuse, I wasn’t sure why I was watching. This is fun?
    Speaking for myself, "fun" is not always a factor in why I watch or read a story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Comic-Reader Lad View Post
    Yes, there were always politics and agendas of a sort in comics. However, they weren't always this polarizing.

    Using comics as anti-fascist/pro-freedom propaganda, especially once the US entered World War II, isn't exactly walking a tightrope without a net.

    Likewise, an anti-drug story wouldn't generate backlash. Anti-War stories and imagery in the late 60s & early 70s would have been readily accepted by most of the comics age audience at the time.

    However, in today's comics that go political, there tends to be a lot of differing reactions among the readership. Maybe that's because today's comics readers are older and have had more years to form their private political opinions. Therefore, they're more likely to notice when a writer is shoehorning his or her own political opinions into the stories, or worse, using established characters as mouthpieces for the writer's political views.
    The cover of the very first issue of Captain America got Stan Lee and Jack Kirby death threats. People actually gathered outside their office to terrorize them only to run away when Kirby himself came down to face them.

    Comics have always used polarizing material and readers have reacted with varying degress of hostility in response.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 08-04-2019 at 12:27 AM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fromper View Post
    That would be Captain America, who was shown punching out Hitler on the cover of his #1 issue, a full year before the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
    Yes! - I knew someone would recognise the story from my vague memories.

    An incident described here in what looks a very fine book on Joe schuster

  11. #86
    Fantastic Member The_Lurk's Avatar
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    My favorite is the COIE till Flashpoint era. I never really pondered on the why; it just is. The hard reset attempt they did with n52 surly did played its part; completely made me cross DC off my list. Thankfully they try fixing that since Rebirth. Its not that I dislike everything new (or older than 85th COIE). Superman/Action Comics; New Super-Man and the JLC; Cyborg and even some of the n52 JL backissues I got to fill out some gaps between Flashpoint and Rebirth are really nice. But overall the material from back then feels just more ...wholesome? The artists both textually and artistically less restrained, less like walking on eggshells, less cliffhanger happy? I cant really put it better.

    And its not just re-reading nostalgia. I missed a lot back then which I go back to over time. So a lot of it is really new to me.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    DiDio (via Bleeding Cool):

    People are more interested in buying the stories from 30 or 40 years ago than the contemporary stories, and that’s a failure on us. We should be focused on moving things forward, always pushing the boundaries and finding new stories to tell. That’s how we’ll survive and grow this industry.
    Reading those words, I'm very unsure about what message he is taking out from that observation.

    First, DiDio has been leading DC for what, 10 years now? So I think that observation should be rather humbling for him and his leadership. I don't read that there.

    Another factor is that I think he draws the wrong conclusion: "moving things forward, always pushing the boundaries and finding new stories to tell" are all good things, but it should not be the primary goal, and putting them first—especially boundary-pushing—can easily become self-serving. If your only goal with a story is to "push the boundaries" you will often end up with a slew of gross and distasteful stuff that often is extremely conservative in its underlying messages and tone.

    Instead, the first goal should be to publish good stories. Some of them will be great or new or boundary-pushing, and then you shouldn't be afraid to publish them.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    About older stories as a kid in the 80s I read 80s stories. One day i got a issue of marvel tales with a 60s spider-man vs kraven story reprinted in it as well as a reprint issue of spidey meeting a early yellow outfit daredevil. The artwork was not the same but I still loved these stories. Went to my comic shop in our small little town and would pick out comics for 25 cents. Got 70s defenders, fantastic four, worlds finest and batman books as well as a 60s aquaman issue! Didn't care how old they were I loved them.

    Kids at school had trades of the greatest superman stories ever made and the greatest joker stories ever made with stories from the 40s to the 80s! The owner shared the books at recess and we all passed it around reading them! The fact that they were old didn't mean anything. We liked the stories.

    Carl barks uncle scrooge stories are loved world wide and still reprinted. Some are from the 40s! There was more story in a 12 page scrooge story then in 4 comics today sometimes!

    Smurfs are at my local library and kids still read them today! The early stories are from the 50s!

    Bone is from the 90s yet kids still read the books. 70s snoopy and Garfield books are still sold for kids!

    Doreamon is from the 60s and those books are all over japan. DBZ, case closed(detective conan) and sailor moon are all over 20 years old but are still all over japan as well!)

    Books like alice in wonderland are still in print as is wizard of oz. Kids still read clifferd the big red dog, berenstain bears, dr suess, Winnie the pooh and curious George books. Did you know how old some of these books are!


    Movies like gone with the wind, dumbo and wizard of oz are classics even to the day. My nephews love totoro and it's from the 80s! Harry potter is what 20 years old and there is a universal studios park about them.


    If a story is good it does not matter how old it is. The highest rated shows on cartoon network for years was reruns of 1940s tom and jerry and 1960s scooby-doo beating out newer shows!

    With that said you still need to move forward with new stories. Case closed still has new episodes, dnz has a new series, ninja turtles have changed many times, star trek went to a new generation, doreamon still has new movies every year, smurfs has new comics by the peyo famly.

    The past is great but at the same time you still need to keep going. The best way is telling GOOD stories. Have less events and more smaller stories as well. Also more story in the issue. It's $4 for a comic that takes 2 min to read. The older 75 cent comics had more panels per page and told more story then the ones today!

  14. #89
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    I think it ultimately boils down to authenticity.

    The Pre-52 DC Universe felt authentic because there was real character growth across the majority of books.

    Batman had a son, Grayson became the Batman of Gotham, The Green Lantern Corp blew up in a real way, and the Flash family still existed even after the return of Barry.

    Of course there were a myriad of editorial wankery when it came to big level decisions but in the end they never stuck.

    Moreover, the characters "felt" like they truly knew one another and there was a real camaraderie; so with all of this, to me, it feels authentic and I would rather live in that DC Universe as to what it is now: a hodge podge of editorial mandates.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    2011 truly was a deal changer in my perception of DC.

    Not for the best i have to say. So yeah, thanks Shiva i have all my old TPBs to read.

    I keep an eye on the new stuff though cause you know, once in a while you have some real good runs.
    "A bottomless pit is the safest place to be"

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