Who is Iron Man’s archenemy now

[Marvell2100]

He can be more than that, but shouldn't lose that. I think of "Penguin: Pain and Prejudice" as an example of someone who is a brutal thug, while also being more than that. Some of the better Black Mask, Vandal Savage, and Gorilla Grodd also has them be more than brutal thugs, without losing that they are brutal thugs. The Mandarin is not, should not be Ra's Al Ghul. His personality is diametrically opposed to Ra's refinement.

He seems to be driven by hypermasculine things: the urge to conquer and dominate both via armies and in single-combat. And he tries to turn the world into a more social darwinian place where this kind of behavior is natural. For example, using the Heart of Darkness to revert the world to the Dark Ages, using orbiting satelite "hate-rays" to plunge the world into chaos, various schemes to cause World War III. Essentially, he's an evil Klingon, and he wants earth to be a much more Klingonesque place. Even his most minor schemes have a vibe of hypermasculinity, such as wanting to broadcast a duel between himself and Iron Man. On a world scale he embodies Ayn Rand flavored social darwinism, and on a personal scale he embodies hypermasculinity, the urge to hit and conquer and dominate physically, mentally, and spiritually.


Because Iron Man isn't as popular as the heroes those villains are connected to.


Eh, he's had plenty of stories where he was treated very seriously. Also, Joker often is not treated seriously, and he's the most popular villain of all time.

The problem isn't whether they treat him seriously or not, the problem is that they have never mined the origin Stan Lee gave him. Stan Lee gave him an origin that combined the pathos of tortured super-soldiers like X-23, the pathos of abuse victims like Black Mask and The Penguin, and the darkness of a sci-fi version of the horrors Christopher Columbus perpetrated on natives he "discovered", robbed, and enslaved. That should have been a rich, rich source of stories to mine. And writers have done....nothing with any of it.

They've ignored it or glossed over it, and mostly focused on the rings. The rings are, by far, the least interesting aspect of The Mandarin. But writers keep right on focusing on them. It's baffling, like having Joker stories where the writer won't shut up about the mechanics of his acid-shooting-lapel-flower. Here's how it stores acid, here's the pressure mechanism, here's the lining that keeps the acid from burning Joker if the container is burst in combat, zzzZZZzzzzZZZZzzzzz. Or having stories where the writer glosses over everything about Doom except his armor. Here's how the armor is power, here's where the force-field generator is located, yada yada yada.

To any writers who might be using The Mandarin in the future: shut up about the stupid rings! Tell me about the Mandarin himself. Mine that amazing origin story Stan Lee wrote.

Joker is psychotic. He's not written seriously but the fear he brings is.

Can't say the same for Mandarin lately. This isn't bashing him or saying he can't be a major villain, he just isn't written that way.

As far as Tony's popularity, that's got nothing to do with how dangerous his villains, especially his arch-enemy should be.

Daredevil isn't a household name but Bullseye is no joke.

[Michael Watkins]

He can still fall in the Ra's trope.

He can be more than just a brutal thug with 10 ring.

What is Mandarin's ultimate goal? What drives him? Why isn't he on the same level as Doom, Magneto or Skull?

He's really not taken seriously.

As for what drives him, depends on which origin you choose. In the original, he was practically royalty and raised by a very hateful woman who purposely sought to nurture the worst elements of Mandarin's personality because he "stole" her inheritance. His drive is a feeling of superiority/entitlement. He's an extremely powerful 2 year old. All rage and no empathy.

In the second telling, he grew up in a brothel where he was routinely abused. What drives him is wanting to distance himself from his humble beginnings by being unbelievably strong, rich, and brutal. However you want to dress it, it mirrors the insecurity that you see in a lot of mastermind types.

But he's a hard guy to pin down. I'm still not sure what he was trying to prove when he had the rings embedded into his spine and used an alias. It seemed uncharacteristically indirect for the Mandarin. Plus he had his son be raised a lot like Shang Chi.

[Michael Watkins]

Joker is psychotic. He's not written seriously but the fear he brings is.

Can't say the same for Mandarin lately. This isn't bashing him or saying he can't be a major villain, he just isn't written that way.

As far as Tony's popularity, that's got nothing to do with how dangerous his villains, especially his arch-enemy should be.

Daredevil isn't a household name but Bullseye is no joke.

Who doesn't know Daredevil?

The Mandarin's problem is that Tony's book isn't a great place for long term villains. The image has become that stark has outgrown his rogues gallery and is always looking for the next challenge. And there's often little coordination between the Mandarin and Stark's rogues. The beef between the two characters is pretty weak. That's why they placed Mandarin in Iron Man's origin story. He needs to have orchestrated Stark's misery to truly be a top rogue. Or he needs to move on to another hero. Having an organization to rival AIM and Hydra would help as well.

[XPac]

As for what drives him, depends on which origin you choose. In the original, he was practically royalty and raised by a very hateful woman who purposely sought to nurture the worst elements of Mandarin's personality because he "stole" her inheritance. His drive is a feeling of superiority/entitlement. He's an extremely powerful 2 year old. All rage and no empathy.

In the second telling, he grew up in a brothel where he was routinely abused. What drives him is wanting to distance himself from his humble beginnings by being unbelievably strong, rich, and brutal. However you want to dress it, it mirrors the insecurity that you see in a lot of mastermind types.

But he's a hard guy to pin down. I'm still not sure what he was trying to prove when he had the rings embedded into his spine and used an alias. It seemed uncharacteristically indirect for the Mandarin. Plus he had his son be raised a lot like Shang Chi.

Yeah, he's somewhat all over the place. I don't think he's necessarily had an A list writer come out with some big definative Mandarin story which everyone else can sort of fall in line behind. Because of that, everyone else can sort of do their own thing with him.

An appearance in the MCU might be the best thing for him. Odds are descent we'll get some movie synergy, and a more defined Mandarin coming out of it. Not that I'm necessarily the biggest fan of movie synergy dictating what happens in the comics, but in cases like the Mandarin, it might actually be a good thing.

[Iron Maiden]

Maybe part of it is the issue with IP rights and the rights of freelance talent. I was a bit surprised when Hickman "gave " Marvel some new characters like the Black Order; Black Swan, Corvius Glave, Proxima Midnight. Ebony Maw, SuperGiant, Black Dwarf. But then I don't know what the current arrangement is when you add characters to the MU. I do know that a couple of them have Marvel Legends figures: Proxima Midnight and Corvius Glave. Does the creator get a piece of that?

One would think that if a character's Rogue's Gallery is weak, that would be a good enough reason to make some more. But if you don't get a piece of that character, why do it? Wolverine just started out as an adversary of the Hulk and look what happened there.
'

[Marvell2100]

As for what drives him, depends on which origin you choose. In the original, he was practically royalty and raised by a very hateful woman who purposely sought to nurture the worst elements of Mandarin's personality because he "stole" her inheritance. His drive is a feeling of superiority/entitlement. He's an extremely powerful 2 year old. All rage and no empathy.

In the second telling, he grew up in a brothel where he was routinely abused. What drives him is wanting to distance himself from his humble beginnings by being unbelievably strong, rich, and brutal. However you want to dress it, it mirrors the insecurity that you see in a lot of mastermind types.

But he's a hard guy to pin down. I'm still not sure what he was trying to prove when he had the rings embedded into his spine and used an alias. It seemed uncharacteristically indirect for the Mandarin. Plus he had his son be raised a lot like Shang Chi.

See, that's just it. You really can't pin down the Mandarin's motivations and his ultimate goal. Magneto yes. Doom yes. Skull yes. Mandarin, not quite.

He needs a vision, something he wants to achieve. It's not enough to be bad and have power. You almost want to see his side(like Doom and Magneto) but then are just turned away
by his methods.

I'm not downplaying how ruthless and dangerous he can be. I just want more from him.

[Iron Maiden]

See, that's just it. You really can't pin down the Mandarin's motivations and his ultimate goal. Magneto yes. Doom yes. Skull yes. Mandarin, not quite.

He needs a vision, something he wants to achieve. It's not enough to be bad and have power. You almost want to see his side(like Doom and Magneto) but then are just turned away
by his methods.

I'm not downplaying how ruthless and dangerous he can be. I just want more from him.

I think part of the problem with the Mandarin went back to his Silver Age roots. You run the risk that he may become problematic like the old pulp villain Fu Manchu. His character was very much a product of the age of the Yellow Peril. If you every read the old paperback novels, Fu Manchu has this shadowy network of operatives like the Si Fan, the thugee" and "dacoits". the Mandarin could be a that type of villain who has a global network of operatives but one that does just align him exclusively with the Asian continent. Then of course you have to provide a goal / motivation. Cripple the world governments by cyber attacks and collect ransoms? But then what?

[MichaelC]

His goals seem to be large-scale extrapolations on very personal goals. He just seems to want to be the manliest man who ever manned. Which is to say, the greatest martial artist, and greatest conqueror, with the best harem and palace. He is effectively a social Darwinist extremist, though the undercurrent is more Ayn Rand taken to the point of being Klingon-like than the usual racist motives driving most social darwinists.

I don't know that every villain needs a grand vision. Penguin, Gorilla Grodd, Vandal Savage, Black Mask, all of them mostly just try to advance extrapolations of personal desires rather than having a grand vision, and all of them are compelling.

[Marvell2100]

I think part of the problem with the Mandarin went back to his Silver Age roots. You run the risk that he may become problematic like the old pulp villain Fu Manchu. His character was very much a product of the age of the Yellow Peril. If you every read the old paperback novels, Fu Manchu has this shadowy network of operatives like the Si Fan, the thugee" and "dacoits". the Mandarin could be a that type of villain who has a global network of operatives but one that does just align him exclusively with the Asian continent. Then of course you have to provide a goal / motivation. Cripple the world governments by cyber attacks and collect ransoms? But then what?

Give him the same goal as Tony. They both want to lead humanity into the future, they just go about it differently.

Tony sees the future as bringing out the best of humankind, fulfilling our potential and everyone benefits.

Mandarin sees the future as a glorious age for humanity, where he leads and ultimately benefits.

Think Toyo Harada of Harbinger.

[XPac]

His goals seem to be large-scale extrapolations on very personal goals. He just seems to want to be the manliest man who ever manned. Which is to say, the greatest martial artist, and greatest conqueror, with the best harem and palace. He is effectively a social Darwinist extremist, though the undercurrent is more Ayn Rand taken to the point of being Klingon-like than the usual racist motives driving most social darwinists.

I don't know that every villain needs a grand vision. Penguin, Gorilla Grodd, Vandal Savage, Black Mask, all of them mostly just try to advance extrapolations of personal desires rather than having a grand vision, and all of them are compelling.

I don't think EVERY villain needs a grand vision. But an A list villain probably should. Even if it's personal in nature (ie Thanos, who grand scheme was basically motived by trying to score points with his crush), there should be some sort of understandable method to what he's doing. I think that creates a bit of consistancy in how he's handled.

[Marvell2100]

His goals seem to be large-scale extrapolations on very personal goals. He just seems to want to be the manliest man who ever manned. Which is to say, the greatest martial artist, and greatest conqueror, with the best harem and palace. He is effectively a social Darwinist extremist, though the undercurrent is more Ayn Rand taken to the point of being Klingon-like than the usual racist motives driving most social darwinists.

I don't know that every villain needs a grand vision. Penguin, Gorilla Grodd, Vandal Savage, Black Mask, all of them mostly just try to advance extrapolations of personal desires rather than having a grand vision, and all of them are compelling.

Sure not every villain needs some grand design, I whole-heartedly agree.

But Tony's archenemy should be someone whose goal is more than just to be the world's greatest bank robber.

[MichaelC]

His goal is definitely not to be the world's greatest bank robber. But it is relatively down-to-earth and crudely masculine. I think he might even view the grander types as nutty. Kind of like how Gorilla Grodd viewed Lex Luthor in the final season of Justice League Unlimited. If you've ever seen that season, Grodd's motives aren't grand in nature. He tries to advance an Ayn Rand flavored social darwinism while getting his woman to kneel before him and ask permission before talking, and dominating his organization, and building his empire. The only shred of nobility in him would seem to be his belief that the world just should be a social darwinian place, and that it is not is the weak shackling the strong.

The Mandarin is much the same, as revealed both in the nature of his schemes, and statements like this: "To know that you are superior-- in mind, in body, in spirit. Everything! To know that power is your birthright-- to know what untold thousands exist on this world for no reason but to serve you-- to channel their powers through your empire, be it of land or of business-- channeling it upward to fuel you, to fuel your glory! "

That's a very blatant blend of monarchism and Ayn Rand flavored social darwinism and sheer Klingon-like lust for glory.

[Marvell2100]

Okay. So what's his beef with Tony? How does what he want and what Tony does lead him to become Tony's greatest villain?

This is the hook we need for Mandy.

[Silvermoth]

It’s going to be interesting to redo the poll after the Shang Chi movie comes out

[XPac]

It’s going to be interesting to redo the poll after the Shang Chi movie comes out

It is sort of interesting that arguably one of the most powerful heroes (Iron Man) and arguably one of the least powerful (Shang Chi, no offense to Shang fans) are likely going to to share the same arch nemesis pretty soon.