Who is Iron Man’s archenemy now

[Marvell2100]

Sure. Which is why I think having them face off one in awhile is great. I just wouldn't want it being a regular thing. If Kang becomes Tonys arch enemy, that basically means Kang becomes someone Tony beats on a regular basis. Beat the same guy over and over again, and eventually you stop being the underdog.

No hero faces off against their arch foe on a regular basis.

How many times does the FF face Doom?
Spidey face Green Goblin?
Steve face Red Skull?

Not even once a year. That's what makes it special when they do appear. And they don't always beat them straight out.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I've always thought that it was a mistake to not have Stark be Ultron's creator. Artificial intelligence wasn't in Pym's wheelhouse at the time. Cybernetics isn't the same thing.

I think the MCU realized that and fixed it appropriately. Roy Thomas chose Hank Pym as "Creator of Ultron" mostly because he was the joke Avenger (yeah even back then) and scientist, having created an advanced AI so brilliant that it grows rogue and hypnotizes its creator was the kind of thing that people accepted could happen to Hank more than Tony, who wasn't established as a f--k up until Michelinie's run.

I think Ultron could be annexed permanently to Tony's corner. For one thing, Hank Pym will never be a solo hero (and he never was one even before the slap) so that personal arch-enemy bond that Ultron has with him isn't there. Scott Lang is now, and thanks to Paul Rudd, forever the face of Ant-Man and if he has an arch-enemy it's probably Taskmaster or Cross.

So Ultron is a monster in need of a new Dr. Frankenstein.

[XPac]

No hero faces off against their arch foe on a regular basis.

How many times does the FF face Doom?
Spidey face Green Goblin?
Steve face Red Skull?

Not even once a year. That's what makes it special when they do appear. And they don't always beat them straight out.

In think in order to qualify as an arch enemy, you sort of have to have faced off against your enemy of a regular basis. Of course, the term "regular" can be left open to interpretation. But the point being, its a villain that you've beaten over and over and over again. And after a certain number of loses, it becomes a lot hard to sell that hero as the underdog.

Once we get to the point where Kang has lost to Tony for the sixth time in a row, we're going to sweat a whole lot less when he's facing Tony along with Black Panther, Thor, and Captain America. I'm not saying Kang can't still be a threat. But it's not the same as a Kang that needed all the Avengers working together to beat.

[MichaelC]

Eh, Zemo manages to still be a team-threat, despite being fundamentally a Captain America villain.

For that matter, The Mandarin has been a team-threat on several occasions despite being an Iron Man villain.

It's just a matter of varying the resources they've acquired in particular stories. Don't see why that can't apply to Kang and Ultron.

[Marvell2100]

Eh, Zemo manages to still be a team-threat, despite being fundamentally a Captain America villain.

For that matter, The Mandarin has been a team-threat on several occasions despite being an Iron Man villain.

It's just a matter of varying the resources they've acquired in particular stories. Don't see why that can't apply to Kang and Ultron.

Yeah, Loki has been an Avengers threat and Thor's archenemy.

Hasn't hurt him.

[Marvell2100]

In think in order to qualify as an arch enemy, you sort of have to have faced off against your enemy of a regular basis. Of course, the term "regular" can be left open to interpretation. But the point being, its a villain that you've beaten over and over and over again. And after a certain number of loses, it becomes a lot hard to sell that hero as the underdog.

Once we get to the point where Kang has lost to Tony for the sixth time in a row, we're going to sweat a whole lot less when he's facing Tony along with Black Panther, Thor, and Captain America. I'm not saying Kang can't still be a threat. But it's not the same as a Kang that needed all the Avengers working together to beat.

None of the heroes and their archenemies face off on a regular basis. I just pointed it out.

Doom faces the FF about every 5-6 years. Same thing for Ultron and the Avengers.

[Sandy Hausler]

No love for the Titanium Man?

[XPac]

None of the heroes and their archenemies face off on a regular basis. I just pointed it out.

Doom faces the FF about every 5-6 years. Same thing for Ultron and the Avengers.

It's a little more frequent than twice a decade, but the point being once it's to the point where the villain has wrecked up loss after loss after loss against Stark he gets watered down in the team setting. If Stark is showing up with Black Panther, Captain America, Captain Marvel and Thor by his side to face Kang after he's previously beaten Kang 6 times in a row, it's harder to sell Stark as an underdog.

[SuperiorIronman]

It's one of those things that I feel should be an element of the franchise rather than in keeping with comics and fanbases.

If Tony Stark's superpower is effectively staying ahead in the race for more advanced technology, then his villains should be left behind or redesigned to compete. And in a sense that is what ended up happening. He has repeat villains, but many of them are the second or third incarnation of those characters with others never to be seen again outside of gags. He does have villains who've always been one person however as Obadiah Stane and The Mandarin are the two most notable examples of this. However Stane has been dead for decades only to come back temporarily before he'd been returned to the realm of the dead. The Mandarin croaked finally and the community seemed fine with it more getting annoyed that he pointlessly came back just to get gunned down by Punisher.

If Iron man is consistently moving forward then so should his threats. Evolve or die so to speak.

[Marvell2100]

It's a little more frequent than twice a decade, but the point being once it's to the point where the villain has wrecked up loss after loss after loss against Stark he gets watered down in the team setting. If Stark is showing up with Black Panther, Captain America, Captain Marvel and Thor by his side to face Kang after he's previously beaten Kang 6 times in a row, it's harder to sell Stark as an underdog.

Go back and look at how many times the FF have fought doom in the past 10 years. No major events, just in their own comic. It happens less than you think, like I said, every 5-6 years.

I also brought up Loki who has fought the Avengers and Thor has fought him solo.

You're stuck in the notion that the Avengers have to show up every time if Tony fights Kang. They don't.

And Doom has lost on multiple times against the FF. Is he watered down? What about Thanos be Avengers.

Again, with your line of thinking, you've already skipped the struggle of the fight to go straight to the conclusion.

You make it sound like Tony's just going to show up for the winand get a participation trophy. That's not how it works.

You've even said it in your own posts a few times. Heroes win, villains lose. It's the struggle that matters.

But since neither of us is going to change anyone's mind, I leave the last word to you.

[Marvell2100]

No love for the Titanium Man?

Budget cuts have hurt the Titanium Man.

They're all about that Red Room now

[XPac]

Go back and look at how many times the FF have fought doom in the past 10 years. No major events, just in their own comic. It happens less than you think, like I said, every 5-6 years.

I also brought up Loki who has fought the Avengers and Thor has fought him solo.

You're stuck in the notion that the Avengers have to show up every time if Tony fights Kang. They don't.

And Doom has lost on multiple times against the FF. Is he watered down? What about Thanos be Avengers.

Again, with your line of thinking, you've already skipped the struggle of the fight to go straight to the conclusion.

You make it sound like Tony's just going to show up for the winand get a participation trophy. That's not how it works.

You've even said it in your own posts a few times. Heroes win, villains lose. It's the struggle that matters.

But since neither of us is going to change anyone's mind, I leave the last word to you.

Doom's not watered down because he's not the arch enemy of any one hero. He's an arch enemy of a team of heroes. That's the difference. If Doom constantly lost to JUST the Human Torch then yeah... after a certain point he would be watered down as a threat to the whole FF.

Same thing with Thanos. He's used to tackling entire teams of Avengers. If he were to lose to Iron Man or Thor a half dozen times, it would water him down as a team threat too. Once or twice is no big deal... but when it becomes a repeated thing, he gets watered down as a team buster.

But yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree here. If Kang can't beat Iron Man he shouldn't be tackling the Avengers as a whole on a regular basis. Characters should for the most part fight in their weight class. Occasioning dipping up and down is fine... but heroes and especially team of heroes should be dealing with threats at the approprite level. The Avengers shouldn't JUST be fightin Iron Man level threats... they should be dealing with threats bigger. That's the point of it being an Avengers story rather than just an Iron Man story. If the problem isn't bigger than just one Avenger, it's sort of missing the point.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

If Iron man is consistently moving forward then so should his threats. Evolve or die so to speak.

You could have a villain who embodies the complications and contradiction of Tony's post-Ellis futurist thing. Someone who's obsessed with the future tends to value the present and the past far less than they should, and that attitude of Tony was used by Bendis and Hickman to tragic effect in the Illuminati in New Avengers.

There's also entropy where at a certain point things break down and so on. You could have his enemies represent Planned Obsolescence, Entropy and other stuff that always puncture the shiniest utopian strivings.

I suppose you could update and reconfigure Mandarin to do that, while Stane or Stark's business rivals make sure that Stark's grand plans always face commercial obstacles from taking root in the marketplace.

[MichaelC]

I dunno about that. You don't want the conflict to be rooted in something too dry.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I dunno about that. You don't want the conflict to be rooted in something too dry.

A good writer won't necessarily make it dry in execution. As it is, stuff like Tony Stark is a futurist or the guy whose technology will always be a step above everyone, test pilot of the future, and all that jazz...i.e. Warren Ellis' Tony in EXTREMIS...is pretty damn dry.

I mean all the complaints about Reed Richards not putting his tech on the market is a million times truer with Tony who actually has money, social capital, and political connections to create the next industrial revolution or whatever. So that kind of stuff can be explored or externalized into a villain who represents the real reasons why people don't get their jetpacks, or alternatively a villain who actually wants to make it happen but the way in which it does happen can be worse potentially.