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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Yea. You should shake up certain things but I feel certain points he really left flat. Once again why do we have to deal with Hippotlya in a sense being the villain. Mala and Diana's relationship doesn't feel like a romantic relationship. Everything feels mixed.
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  2. #17
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    The design of Themyscaria from Earth One absolutely. It looks REALLY cool:
    Attachment 85420
    Maybe also take the conventionally attractive Dr. Psycho, since I think that could be a good direction for the character (although I also like Dwarf Psycho). But otherwise nah. I like current Rebirth Diana and her allies the way they are and don’t really see a need to change them.
    Yes Yannick Paquette's Themyscira is so beautiful! The main book should bring over it and it's tech, the six pointed stars a sea shell designs, the Venus girdle controversy and the Uber Fraulein.

    WW UBER FRAULEIN.jpg

    I like my Dr. Psycho an evil, ugly, demented dwarf. Puck from Alpha Flight cancels out the unseemly implications.
    Last edited by Koriand'r; 08-04-2019 at 08:47 AM.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Yes Yannick Paquette's Themyscira is so beautiful! The main book should bring over it and it's tech, the six pointed stars a sea shell designs, the Venus girdle controversy and the Uber Fraulein.

    WW UBER FRAULEIN.jpg

    I like my Dr. Psycho an evil, ugly, demented dwarf. Puck from Alpha Flight cancels out the unseemly implications.
    I'm right there with you on Paula and the rest. I hope Paula gets more screen time in the next volume, because the Amazons misguided but well meaning attempt to overwrite her Nazi brainwashing with brainwashing of their own needs more space to be explored.

    Psycho though, I'm not sure only having two notable dwarfs in superhero comics (and one at another company to boot) really cancels out the negative representation. Psycho still looks like himself, just of a more average height, which is more relevant to the current times because several guys out there don't need to be rejected and mocked on a physical level to be total scumbag "Nice Guys"/sleazy pickup artists. And anyone being ridiculed for their dwarfism and turning into someone like Psycho is one of the Golden Age elements that hasn't aged well.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'm right there with you on Paula and the rest. I hope Paula gets more screen time in the next volume, because the Amazons misguided but well meaning attempt to overwrite her Nazi brainwashing with brainwashing of their own needs more space to be explored.
    Somehow I doubt Morrison is the person to do that exploration, and if Diana somehow ends up "fixing" the Amazons based on her experiences in Man's World he's literally turning Marston's premise inside out.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Psycho though, I'm not sure only having two notable dwarfs in superhero comics (and one at another company to boot) really cancels out the negative representation. Psycho still looks like himself, just of a more average height, which is more relevant to the current times because several guys out there don't need to be rejected and mocked on a physical level to be total scumbag "Nice Guys"/sleazy pickup artists. And anyone being ridiculed for their dwarfism and turning into someone like Psycho is one of the Golden Age elements that hasn't aged well.
    Agreed. I liked that Morrison gave a nod to Psycho's origin in that Psycho was below average height, but still well within normal norms. If the original Psycho concept was to explore ableism and misogyny, the end result was really a mishmash. Morrison's misogyny was creepy and realistic just because it wasn't rooted in ableism directed against him.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Somehow I doubt Morrison is the person to do that exploration, and if Diana somehow ends up "fixing" the Amazons based on her experiences in Man's World he's literally turning Marston's premise inside out.
    So should the Amazons learn that the Venus Girdles are actually pretty bad on their own? Because I agree that that would be my preference. if I were to build a WW canon, I'd keep the Venus Girdles and have a younger Amazon (probably Mala) speak out against them and bring new ideas for rehabilitation, changing the society from within. I'm not interested in ditching the Girdles altogether, but if they are around they need to be questionable.

    Rehabilitation via brainwashing is one of the Marston premises that should be turned inside out though. Marston-by-way of the Amazons and Queen Desira meant well by it, but it's creepy from a modern perspective. He didn't really build up a strong case for it originally, one of the Butterfly Girls says maybe it's wrong to employ them and Desira basically says "nuh uh, shut up" and that was that. His loving submission stuff/master-slave stuff is interesting when it's consensual on the sub's part, as Paula was originally, but forcefully slapping a belt on an unwilling participant becomes ominous in a way he maybe didn't intend. You kind of end up rooting for Villainy Inc a bit when they rebel and free themselves from the Girdles.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    So should the Amazons learn that the Venus Girdles are actually pretty bad on their own? Because I agree that that would be my preference. if I were to build a WW canon, I'd keep the Venus Girdles and have a younger Amazon (probably Mala) speak out against them and bring new ideas for rehabilitation, changing the society from within. I'm not interested in ditching the Girdles altogether, but if they are around they need to be questionable.
    I'd probably just quietly drop them, though your option can also work. Not every element that Marston introduced needs to (or even should) be included. It's not like they are an important piece of the Amazon lore, in any case. Heck, I can't even locate them myself. I'd much rather that DC set out to explore the Magic Lasso in greater depth.

    Marston also included other methods of rehabilitation as well, like with Gloria Bullfinch.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I'd probably just quietly drop them, though your option can also work. Not every element that Marston introduced needs to (or even should) be included. It's not like they are an important piece of the Amazon lore, in any case. Heck, I can't even locate them myself. I'd much rather that DC set out to explore the Magic Lasso in greater depth.

    Marston also included other methods of rehabilitation as well, like with Gloria Bullfinch.
    They are in at least Wonder Woman #12, 21 and 28, and I think they make a few more appearances throughout the Golden Age. They seem to be an important piece of at least the Golden Age Amazon lore.

    I agree that they don't necessarily have to be included and the lasso takes priority, but I don't believe in an either/or situation, we can explore both. Though maybe it would be better to relegate them to being on Venus only and explore the problematic aspects using Queen Desira and her people instead of using the Amazons, where Marston's other ideas (and the ideas of other authors) would be focused on.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    They are in at least Wonder Woman #12, 21 and 28, and I think they make a few more appearances throughout the Golden Age. They seem to be an important piece of at least the Golden Age Amazon lore.
    Thanks! I'll take a look!
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  9. #24
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'm right there with you on Paula and the rest. I hope Paula gets more screen time in the next volume, because the Amazons misguided but well meaning attempt to overwrite her Nazi brainwashing with brainwashing of their own needs more space to be explored.

    Psycho though, I'm not sure only having two notable dwarfs in superhero comics (and one at another company to boot) really cancels out the negative representation. Psycho still looks like himself, just of a more average height, which is more relevant to the current times because several guys out there don't need to be rejected and mocked on a physical level to be total scumbag "Nice Guys"/sleazy pickup artists. And anyone being ridiculed for their dwarfism and turning into someone like Psycho is one of the Golden Age elements that hasn't aged well.
    We all know all Little People aren't innately evil or dangerous psychopaths. We have Snow White, Munchkins, Ewoks, Little People, Big World, Little Women:L.A. etc. that provide positive representation. I don't see why the onus is on us to change Dr. Psycho around as if he's the sole member of a maligned subgroup that needs upliftment. In comics besides Puck there's also Oberon and Tom Thumb to prove all Little People aren't deranged misogynists. I'm of the opinion that if exposure to a few members of society you're unfamiliar with in a comic book leads you to jump to vicious assumptions about all of them in the real world, you're not very bright, inclined towards bigotry and you're the problem not the comic.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    I can see the depiction of Themysciran architecture, fashion, design, technological marvels, etc. crossover to the main comic. I don’t like my Amazon culture stagnated.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    We all know all Little People aren't innately evil or dangerous psychopaths. We have Snow White, Munchkins, Ewoks, Little People, Big World, Little Women:L.A. etc. that provide positive representation. I don't see why the onus is on us to change Dr. Psycho around as if he's the sole member of a maligned subgroup that needs upliftment. In comics besides Puck there's also Oberon and Tom Thumb to prove all Little People aren't deranged misogynists. I'm of the opinion that if exposure to a few members of society you're unfamiliar with in a comic book leads you to jump to vicious assumptions about all of them in the real world, you're not very bright, inclined towards bigotry and you're the problem not the comic.
    Oberon, Tom Thumb and Puck are niche characters even by comic book standards. Dr Psycho is probably the most known little person in superhero comics by virtue of being a WW villain and is the only little person in the cast.

    Also, look up Depraved Dwarf. The depiction of dwarves as evil is a lot more widespread in media than you think. You'll see that Dr Psycho isn't even the only example found in comics.

  12. #27
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Oberon, Tom Thumb and Puck are niche characters even by comic book standards. Dr Psycho is probably the most known little person in superhero comics by virtue of being a WW villain and is the only little person in the cast.

    Also, look up Depraved Dwarf. The depiction of dwarves as evil is a lot more widespread in media than you think. You'll see that Dr Psycho isn't even the only example found in comics.
    I know there's also Culp a villain of Starman and the Shade and I like him too. Speaking of the Shade he's a very pale, very thin man of above average height. Should he be shortened so tall people aren't stereotyped? It sounds like I'm joking but I'm not, I have a friend that's 7'2" and he has horror stories to tell about being "freakishly tall" all his life and how his height has impacted him negatively. We all have our crosses to bear regardless of sex, class, orientation, height, weight, color or religion. Differences should be embraced and not erased.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Neither is automatically better than the other. The former can bring bad publicity that can be difficult or even impossible to recover from which Diana doesn't need.

    Noticably, Morrison's take has been rather mixed while runs that supposedly played it safe got a far bettet reception.
    Sure. That said, they've certainly been successful enough to garner sequels, to which I'm extremely grateful for, since I've enjoyed them immensely.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

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