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  1. #1
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    Default Should the current Wonder Woman comic be more like Grant Morrison Earth One?

    In many ways Wonder Woman's story started when Hypolyta was attacked by Hercules. From there Paradise Island was form. In many ways rape is the first weapon destruction. After that you have the first sharp pointed weapon. Then you have knives, swords, guns, rockets, bombs. This has been a subject in Grant Morrison's Earth One book.

    If something similar was incorporated in her main book I can see it taking the form of Wonder Woman created a new city in America that would ban all symbols of the first weapon-rape. And will offer it as a refuge mostly for anyone who want to live free from a society who indulges in those symbols.

    Also. The city will be highly advance and uses a form of a brain to computer interface to express very powerful feelings of love and peace.

    Wonder Woman's pov would be that everyone is being raped on an unconscious level and this is indeed the root of all crime and war. She sees everyday crime as an extention of rape and with this world view she will enter into Batman's territory every now and then.
    Last edited by Wakeneuron; 08-02-2019 at 10:31 AM.

  2. #2
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    The victimization of the Amazons by men, especially Heracles predates Morrison's writing. Other than that, the less the main Wonder Woman comic has in common with anything Morrison has ever done with the character the better. His obsession with including weirdness for the sake of it is not as clever as he thinks and has resulted in all kinds of dodgy elements in his writing.

  3. #3
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    The aesthetics of the Themyscira, and the depictions of Dr. Psycho and Etta Candy need to be brought over immediately.
    I'd also be fine with using the Venus Girdles along with the ominous atmosphere surrounding them, because if they are used they should be questioned. it should just be allowed more space to "breath" than the Paula subplot was allowed to be.

    Aside from that, WW is more of an interesting failure on his part. Which is still more interesting than what other writers typically put out, but far from his best and probably not something the character needs unless he has a co-author. I think him and Rucka, if working together, could kill it and balance out each others down sides. Morrison would inject more color, whimsy and weirdness intrinsic to the character, while Rucka could reign in the potentially problematic elements and and keep a serious atmopshere. and be better suited for some characters, and vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The victimization of the Amazons by men, especially Heracles predates Morrison's writing. Other than that, the less the main Wonder Woman comic has in common with anything Morrison has ever done with the character the better. His obsession with including weirdness for the sake of it is not as clever as he thinks and has resulted in all kinds of dodgy elements in his writing.
    She was fine in JLA.

    I also wouldn't say he does weirdness for the sake of it, that's just his style and superhero comics are larger than life and weird to begin with. it either clicks or it doesn't. But I don't think anything major by him has had especially dodgy writing except for WW, as usual she is the outlier of something.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The aesthetics of the Themyscira, and the depictions of Dr. Psycho and Etta Candy need to be brought over immediately.
    I'd also be fine with using the Venus Girdles along with the ominous atmosphere surrounding them, because if they are used they should be questioned. it should just be allowed more space to "breath" than the Paula subplot was allowed to be.

    Aside from that, WW is more of an interesting failure on his part. Which is still more interesting than what other writers typically put out, but far from his best and probably not something the character needs unless he has a co-author. I think him and Rucka, if working together, could kill it and balance out each others down sides. Morrison would inject more color, whimsy and weirdness intrinsic to the character, while Rucka could reign in the potentially problematic elements and and keep a serious atmopshere. and be better suited for some characters, and vice versa.



    She was fine in JLA.

    I also wouldn't say he does weirdness for the sake of it, that's just his style and superhero comics are larger than life and weird to begin with. it either clicks or it doesn't. But I don't think anything major by him has had especially dodgy writing except for WW, as usual she is the outlier of something.
    Look up the character Mother of Champions.

    There's also this little gem about why he made Steve Trevor black.

    Nrama: Another surprising thing is that Steve Trevor is a black man. I assume that was a conscious decision, also to reflect the diversity of the outside world?

    Morrison: Yeah, definitely on the diversity. We just wanted more representation in the book generally.

    But in terms of Steve, it's also — again, there are a lot of characters who play opposite Diana, and we wanted Steve to be very physically opposite to her. Originally, Steve Trevor played the kind of feminine role in the Wonder Woman stories. He always seemed kind of boring next to Wonder Woman and all the girls in the stories. And I find it really hard to believe she would have any interest in this man at all beyond the scientific. So I found it much more interesting to have a man who seems potentially much stronger than that original slightly milk-softish Steve Trevor from the original. So I just updated him and made him a much stronger looking dude.

    You see him as he's coming up out of the water, when Diana first sees him, and the parachute silks resemble the shell — we were kind of saying, yeah, this guy's in the feminine role, but think again. This isn't the Steve Trevor you're familiar with.
    https://www.newsarama.com/28588-gran...earth-one.html

    Also his issues with weirdness for the sake of it isn't limited to superhero comics. Even then we have stuff like him retconning Talia into a rapist because he misrembered the story about how she got pregnant and the orientalism in his writing of her (that was always a problem with the al Ghuls but Morrison took it up to 11).

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Look up the character Mother of Champions.
    Yeah, fair enough on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There's also this little gem about why he made Steve Trevor black.
    He said for diversity. The rest of the quote you provide doesn't have anything to do with Steve's race swapping.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Also his issues with weirdness for the sake of it isn't limited to superhero comics. Even then we have stuff like him retconning Talia into a rapist because he misrembered the story about how she got pregnant and the orientalism in his writing of her (that was always a problem with the al Ghuls but Morrison took it up to 11).
    Why is the weirdness an issue? Who is to say that it's just being done for the sake of it? Not everyone is going to interpret it that way.

    I have no problem with him cranking up Talia's villainy, but I've never really liked her before him either. She was always wishy washy and kept bad company, so evil Talia is just more honest to me. If he mismembered the story at least it wasn't a deliberate retcon at first.

    I don't view his depiction of the Al Ghuls as being worse than usual. I'm not overly fond of them to begin with though, partially for that reason.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, fair enough on that one.



    He said for diversity. The rest of the quote you provide doesn't have anything to do with Steve's race swapping.




    Why is the weirdness an issue? Who is to say that it's just being done for the sake of it? Not everyone is going to interpret it that way.

    I have no problem with him cranking up Talia's villainy, but I've never really liked her before him either. She was always wishy washy and kept bad company, so evil Talia is just more honest to me. If he mismembered the story at least it wasn't a deliberate retcon at first.

    I don't view his depiction of the Al Ghuls as being worse than usual. I'm not overly fond of them to begin with though, partially for that reason.
    He specifically refers to Steve as playing the opposite to Diana and refers to using his looks as doing that.

    It's definitely worse with him turning Talia into a cackling Dragon Lady stereotype, making her sole motivation be her obsession with Bruce and the invokation of the image of Kali in several images. Every problem with the al Ghuls, Morrison just made so much worse.

    Also note he didn't make Selina pure evil despite her history of being wishy washy and keeping bad company as well.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 08-02-2019 at 12:25 PM.

  7. #7

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    Eh, I'm not big on Morrison. I was never impressed with how he wrote her in JLA and I still hold a grudge for how she was treated in Final Crisis.

    I will at least give him credit though for saying this:
    My take on Wonder Woman is that I don't like to see the sword and shield thing. I don't like that the only way to show strong women is to make them Conan the Barbarian.
    So I can agree with him on that much, but I'd still prefer his influence on Diana be minimal or kept to out-of-continuity stuff.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Somethings are interesting but somethings feel at a missed.

  9. #9
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    I like that he tends to take more chances than most writers do with WW. He doesn't really seem to play it safe in any way, shape, or form, especially when it comes to leaning into any one iteration of the character. I think WW needs more of this, quite frankly, if not from him, definitely from someone else.

    Better to raise eyebrows than be ignored.
    "Overturn everything! Can't he just write an executive order that says: 'Everything Trump did is now overturned. F**k that guy.' signed, Joe Biden."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    I like that he tends to take more chances than most writers do with WW. He doesn't really seem to play it safe in any way, shape, or form, especially when it comes to leaning into any one iteration of the character. I think WW needs more of this, quite frankly, if not from him, definitely from someone else.

    Better to raise eyebrows than be ignored.
    Neither is automatically better than the other. The former can bring bad publicity that can be difficult or even impossible to recover from which Diana doesn't need.

    Noticably, Morrison's take has been rather mixed while runs that supposedly played it safe got a far bettet reception.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 08-02-2019 at 03:27 PM.

  11. #11
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He specifically refers to Steve as playing the opposite to Diana and refers to using his looks as doing that.
    He also states that whole package of Steve, especially him being a male with a different body type, is a physical difference. Along with the skin tone, it highlights that they are different and come from different backgrounds and perspectives. He did not say anything like one was superior or inferior to the other, just different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It's definitely worse with him turning Talia into a cackling Dragon Lady stereotype, making her sole motivation be her obsession with Bruce and the invokation of the image of Kali in several images. Every problem with the al Ghuls, Morrison just made so much worse.
    Talia's whole thing is deciding which man to be loyal to, and one of those men is a megalomaniac who wants to rule the world and has no qualms about wiping out a significant portion of the population to do it. She is the result of being raised by such a person, as we see in the flashback issue where we see her messed up childhood. Of course her love with Bruce and raising Damian is not going to be expressed in a healthy manner. Honestly, her basically saying "screw them both" and calling out Bruce's arrogance for presuming that he can "save" her (because she's hot, she can't be all bad, right?) is pretty awesome.

    She uses Medusa and Tiamat imagery as well. She's a pretentious whack job like her father and the rest of the Bat Villains, and just cutting the BS and embracing her evil, and becoming arguably more formidable than her father, finally got me to actually like her. I get the desire to avoid more Dragon Lady Mother stereotypes, but I wouldn't consider looking to Talia (or Cheshire, or Shiva) for that in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Also note he didn't make Selina pure evil despite her history of being wishy washy and keeping bad company as well.
    Of course there are some exceptions in her long history as a character...but Selina's moral grayness is at worst being a thief/anti-hero. No way is she inclined to go where Talia was always going to possibly go.

    Also, DC and more importantly the fans just like Selina better both as a character and a romantic option for Bruce.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    He also states that whole package of Steve, especially him being a male with a different body type, is a physical difference. Along with the skin tone, it highlights that they are different and come from different backgrounds and perspectives. He did not say anything like one was superior or inferior to the other, just different.



    Talia's whole thing is deciding which man to be loyal to, and one of those men is a megalomaniac who wants to rule the world and has no qualms about wiping out a significant portion of the population to do it. She is the result of being raised by such a person, as we see in the flashback issue where we see her messed up childhood. Of course her love with Bruce and raising Damian is not going to be expressed in a healthy manner. Honestly, her basically saying "screw them both" and calling out Bruce's arrogance for presuming that he can "save" her (because she's hot, she can't be all bad, right?) is pretty awesome.

    She uses Medusa and Tiamat imagery as well. She's a pretentious whack job like her father and the rest of the Bat Villains, and just cutting the BS and embracing her evil, and becoming arguably more formidable than her father, finally got me to actually like her. [B]I get the desire to avoid more Dragon Lady Mother stereotypes, but I wouldn't consider looking to Talia (or Cheshire, or Shiva) for that in the first place. [\B]



    Of course there are some exceptions in her long history as a character...but Selina's moral grayness is at worst being a thief/anti-hero. No way is she inclined to go where Talia was always going to possibly go.

    Also, DC and more importantly the fans just like Selina better both as a character and a romantic option for Bruce.
    Um, why? It's not like they have to be written that way. YJ certainly didn't depict Cheshire or Shiva like that.

    That's my point. The "she's hot she can't be all bad" only seems to apply when it comes to white women no matter what they've done.

    I also find it pretty notable he conflates a man being feminine with being boring. That alone makes the idea of him writing a good WW story questionable.

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    The design of Themyscaria from Earth One absolutely. It looks REALLY cool:
    435FBAA6-D9E0-456A-B7F5-2AF281CEDDBD.jpg
    Maybe also take the conventionally attractive Dr. Psycho, since I think that could be a good direction for the character (although I also like Dwarf Psycho). But otherwise nah. I like current Rebirth Diana and her allies the way they are and don’t really see a need to change them.

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I feel that Grant somewhat missed why certain things are the way they are. I'm glad he brought back some of Marston's bondage but also some of them feel a bit flat. Somethings has to why he changed Steve because he was boring as a white man. I feel that is offensive.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Pretty much agree with SiegePerilous02. Doctor Psycho and Etta Candy were the high points.

    There are lots of graphical elements to bring over, and just as many to avoid.

    I think the trouble that Morrison did to a large degree was that he wanted to bring Marston's Wonder Woman forward and modernise it (a laudable goal), but he lacked the toolbox to do so. The kink subtext became shaming, the first-wave feminism became strawmen, the Diana out to change and improve Man's World became schooled by it, the Amazons became narrow-minded.

    Switching up Steve Trevor was a good idea in theory. But the only thing that making him black really accomplished was to make an already cringe-worthy move from Diana even more cringe-worthy. For mixing up Steve Trevor, I think making him gay would be a far superior move.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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