Favorite Version of Dr. Otto Octavius

[babyblob]

I really enjoy classic doc Ock. I loved his Master Planner story lines. And the gang war he had with Hammerhead.

[Mike]

I really enjoy classic doc Ock. I loved his Master Planner story lines. And the gang war he had with Hammerhead.

My thoughts too.
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[Scott Taylor]

I wonder how things might have been different had Doc Ock been the one to kill Gwen Stacy instead of Norman. He had already killed Captain Stacy, after all.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I wonder how things might have been different had Doc Ock been the one to kill Gwen Stacy instead of Norman. He had already killed Captain Stacy, after all.

It wouldn’t have happened. Even back then Norman outranked Otto. A lot of people say this isn’t the case but Norman was already the Arch Enemy before he killed Gwen. All the latter did was confirm what was already the case. The reason they gave the murder contract to Goblin to do it wasn’t because they wanted to elevate Norman but because they felt Gwen deserved to be killed by Spider-Man’s best enemy rather than the Gibbon.

Norman’s death didn’t elevate Otto. Otto was a kind of joke villain until Mantlo and Larsen.

George Stacy’s death in any case was the result of collateral damage. Not Otto’s own actions. Sure he’s culpable being a gangster and all but it didn’t define him in any way.

[Mister Mets]

Classic Ock is probably best, but Superior Ock works well as an endgame. I can't think of a Doctor Octopus story that can't be done as an untold tale, and there is a power to the idea that Peter is able to redeem one of the most irredeemable people on the planet. Ock works fine as an antihero.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

...there is a power to the idea that Peter is able to redeem one of the most irredeemable people on the planet.

Peter redeemed Hobie Brown Prowler and Felicia Hardy. He redeemed Felicia a second time in Spencer's run, and that moral triumph is a crucial part of HUNTED's denouement. He also provided Kraven by his moral example a sense of peace, closure and atonement both times (KLH, Hunted).

So Otto is nothing special in that regard.

There's also the fact that Otto's redemption is poorly executed, unconvincing, and politically problematic. If you look at the entire narrative arc of Superior Trash, it kinda does fall into the pattern that many point out about white criminals and terrorists being more liable to be humanized and forgiven for their transactions, and their actions normalized and excused by backstory than those from other backgrounds. The entire last decade or so in the wider culture, whether in shows like Rick and Morty, The Sopranos, Bojack Horseman, and Breaking Bad and the general conversation, has definitely challenged the conventional idea of redemption which is what Otto's Superior operates on and continues to exist in. it's indeed a fairly regressive story by those standards.

I mean compare Superior to Infamous Iron Man, there you have a former villain try and attempt redemption by taking on the legacy of an hero, but in that story, Victor does things openly and publicly, he doesn't lie or claim he's Tony Stark or steal his life. He doesn't whine or dodge the consequences of his actions and when he has a relationship with a love interest, he doesn't lie or pretend he's someone he's not. So there you have genuine pathos, tragedy, and regret. And even there, Bendis is aware that Victor even were he to be sincere, would never really be able to do enough to truly redeem himself, which just adds on top of it.

[Scott Taylor]

Otto's taking of Spider-Man's body didn't work for me, as intended, because its antithetical to Otto's belief that he is superior to Spider-Man. Its 'can't beat em, join 'em" on a grander scale. All of SSM is one big admission of defeat.

It wouldn’t have happened. Even back then Norman outranked Otto. A lot of people say this isn’t the case but Norman was already the Arch Enemy before he killed Gwen. All the latter did was confirm what was already the case. The reason they gave the murder contract to Goblin to do it wasn’t because they wanted to elevate Norman but because they felt Gwen deserved to be killed by Spider-Man’s best enemy rather than the Gibbon.

Norman’s death didn’t elevate Otto. Otto was a kind of joke villain until Mantlo and Larsen.

George Stacy’s death in any case was the result of collateral damage. Not Otto’s own actions. Sure he’s culpable being a gangster and all but it didn’t define him in any way.

Nevertheless it did elevate Norman and settled the notion of whether he was just a crazy loon or a truly dangerous arch-villain. Could have done the same for Otto.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Nevertheless it did elevate Norman and settled the notion of whether he was just a crazy loon or a truly dangerous arch-villain. Could have done the same for Otto.

That "debate" seems to me a '90s product, driven by bitter feelings about the Clone Saga and Norman's resurrection in it. In the aftermath many people denigrated Norman and Goblin and said that the original character was some hack that was a nobody until he killed Gwen Stacy, that the resurrected Goblin has nothing to do with the original and so on and so forth. That's bitterness about a consumer being shafted by a bad story they bought in good faith, understandable and empathetic but not something that's fair and true.

Fact is, before there was never any doubt about Goblin being dangerous. The reason why after Goblin's death you had so many pretenders one after the other (until Venom that is, who really did challenge Goblin as arch-enemy for a while) rather than more Otto stories is because Norman's legacy was worth something to writers, readers and others. The truth is that Otto Octavius was never considered an equal to Norman...not even in the Ditko era. Read up ASM#18 or 19 the one after the Goblin attack on Midtown where Spider-Man leaves the fight to meet Aunt May, the next issue shows a panel with Goblin exulting in victory while contrasted with Otto (in Jail) and others going "bah, shoulda be me" on newspaper headlines talking of how Goblin humiliated Spidey. Roger Stern in an interview even dismissed Otto as a pushover villain who wouldn't have troubled Spider-Man. It was Bill Mantlo, Michelinie, Erik Larsen who made him a threat again, and then Defalco created the backstory for him. The latter was partly driven by the fact that the Spider-Man movie was in development throughout the '80s and 90s and Otto was a prospective villain for the first movie and they wanted a name actor to play him, so that meant he needed more characterization, and that encouraged Otto to develop his character a bit. Defalco who was EIC in the late 80s and early 90s, was of course privy to all of that.

Pretty ironic how things turned out. In the end Norman still returned and was still chosen to be the enemy of the first Spider-Man movie, establishing himself at the top of the heap.

[Mister Mets]

Peter redeemed Hobie Brown Prowler and Felicia Hardy. He redeemed Felicia a second time in Spencer's run, and that moral triumph is a crucial part of HUNTED's denouement. He also provided Kraven by his moral example a sense of peace, closure and atonement both times (KLH, Hunted).

So Otto is nothing special in that regard.

There's also the fact that Otto's redemption is poorly executed, unconvincing, and politically problematic. If you look at the entire narrative arc of Superior Trash, it kinda does fall into the pattern that many point out about white criminals and terrorists being more liable to be humanized and forgiven for their transactions, and their actions normalized and excused by backstory than those from other backgrounds. The entire last decade or so in the wider culture, whether in shows like Rick and Morty, The Sopranos, Bojack Horseman, and Breaking Bad and the general conversation, has definitely challenged the conventional idea of redemption which is what Otto's Superior operates on and continues to exist in. it's indeed a fairly regressive story by those standards.

I mean compare Superior to Infamous Iron Man, there you have a former villain try and attempt redemption by taking on the legacy of an hero, but in that story, Victor does things openly and publicly, he doesn't lie or claim he's Tony Stark or steal his life. He doesn't whine or dodge the consequences of his actions and when he has a relationship with a love interest, he doesn't lie or pretend he's someone he's not. So there you have genuine pathos, tragedy, and regret. And even there, Bendis is aware that Victor even were he to be sincere, would never really be able to do enough to truly redeem himself, which just adds on top of it.

Neither Hobie Brown nor Felicia Hardy qualifies as one of the most irredeemable people on the planet, so it is still special with Ock.

I do disagree with the idea that white criminals should be prevented from redemption arcs, nor does Ock's story prevent any stories with villains of color.

Ock didn't enter into the situation honestly although it makes sense for the character. He found himself in a situation where he could be a better person during what seemed to be a moment of triumph for the supervillain.

[comicscollector]

I voted Classic Doctor Octopus.
With the white suit,Doctor Octupus was the best.
But i thought Superior Spider-Man was great as well.

[Master Planner]

It wouldn’t have happened. Even back then Norman outranked Otto. A lot of people say this isn’t the case but Norman was already the Arch Enemy before he killed Gwen. All the latter did was confirm what was already the case. The reason they gave the murder contract to Goblin to do it wasn’t because they wanted to elevate Norman but because they felt Gwen deserved to be killed by Spider-Man’s best enemy rather than the Gibbon.

Norman’s death didn’t elevate Otto. Otto was a kind of joke villain until Mantlo and Larsen.

George Stacy’s death in any case was the result of collateral damage. Not Otto’s own actions. Sure he’s culpable being a gangster and all but it didn’t define him in any way.

I think it's unfair to say that Dr Octopus wasn't a big villain back then.Doc Ock was clearly the top villain in Ditko-Lee era, although Stan started to give some small victories to Goblin and when Romita Sr came, the attention went to Goblin and soap opera drama(one of my worst enemies is the dad of my best friend). I prefered Captain Stacy's death and how it happened, because it gives a personal victory to Otto, without knowing it and Peter has a big part in that tragedy, so it has the perfect mix of Spider-Man's guilt and the presence of a big foe.

As for Gwen's death, i always felt that hers and Norman's death was the only solution to those characters, because both Gwen as supporting cast and Norman as a villain reached their potentials and started to become stale. Offing them created new story potentials and progression, considering that Green Goblin-Spider-Man rivalry was more personal and soap operatic, rather your classic comic book rivalry.

As for Ock being a joke villain, i think mid 70s, we had a great void for the spot of the big bad of Spider-verse. Octavius was in a weird storyline with Aunt May and Hammerhead, Harry as Goblin wasn't developed and we had a new Green Goblin(Bart Hammilton) and Kingpin sort of served as a big bad, but not big enough to claim the spot completely. It was in early 80s, when Ock had some of his greatest storylines and Hobgoblin's arrival that put a new interest in spider-titles.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think it's unfair to say that Dr Octopus wasn't a big villain back then.

He was a big villain. But Norman was always bigger than him.

Doc Ock was clearly the top villain in Ditko-Lee era,

Overall, in the entire Ditko era, Dr. Octopus made 5 appearances. Green Goblin and Norman combined made 7 appearances. So Green Goblin was the most recurring villain in the Lee-Ditko era.

although Stan started to give some small victories to Goblin and when Romita Sr came,

Even in the Lee-Ditko era, Green Goblin was the only villain who never got caught and never went to jail. That was there in the Lee-Ditko era. Spider-Man never beat him in battle once. Dr. Octopus was someone Spider-Man defeated in battle and sent to prison quite a few times. Green Goblin went the longest of any Marvel villain to dodge jail time or repercussions. He went to jail finally in Bendis' The Pulse.

Take this panel image, where Green Goblin is essentially crowned as the top rogue in Spider-Man's gallery in ASM #18:

ASM #18 - Goblin on Top.jpg

Goblin is the guy who made Spider-Man run away (not out of cowardice but because his Aunt got sick), Dr. Octopus is sulking behind bars that someone beat him to the punch, Kraven is thoughtful and pensive like Sergei usually is, while Vulture is jealous and bitter because Vulture.

I prefered Captain Stacy's death and how it happened, because it gives a personal victory to Otto, without knowing it and Peter has a big part in that tragedy, so it has the perfect mix of Spider-Man's guilt and the presence of a big foe.

The narrative itself in later issues hardly blamed/credited Otto for George's death. How else did you think they got away with that dumb-as-rocks Aunt May romance/engagement?

As for Gwen's death, i always felt that hers and Norman's death was the only solution to those characters, because both Gwen as supporting cast and Norman as a villain reached their potentials and started to become stale.

I think there were a bunch of other things that could have been done with either character. Gwen and Peter could have broken up (their relationship wasn't in the best of places at the time) and she could have gone to London, Norman could have continued Norman-ing around and Goblin-ing up.

What ultimately ended up becoming stale was the endless number of replacement goblins as nobody could accept who Norman's heir was, and then you had the pretender Hobgoblin who nobody agreed on who he was, and then by the time they did, Norman came back from the dead. And on Norman's return we got great stories like Revenge of the Green Goblin, A Death in the Family, The Pulse, Dark Reign, Thunderbolts, Marvel Knights Spider-Man.

As for Ock being a joke villain,

He had become a joke villain thanks to that Aunt May romance where his wedding was busted by Hammerhead. Roger Stern said that the reason he introduced Juggernaut and Mr. Hyde was, "We’d seen Spider-Man fight Doctor Octopus over and over, and ’way too often it was the same story. I wanted to have Spider-Man fight guys that he couldn’t beat in his sleep." (http://www.marvelessentials.com/feat...rn_1006_2.html)

It was in early 80s, when Ock had some of his greatest storylines and Hobgoblin's arrival that put a new interest in spider-titles.

True the '80s was a good time for Dr. Octopus. As for Hobgoblin...he was amusing until Venom came along and became Spider-Man's actual arch-enemy before the return of the Green Goblin.

[SpideyClone]

I voted Superior Octopus. Green suit/Armani Otto is just played out. The character needed to evolve beyond simple crime-lord and/or another revenge plot against Spider-man. Say what you will about Slott, but being reborn as Superior has made Otto more interesting and opened up more avenues for the character than there had been for years prior.

[Chris0013]

Classic Otto....really wish that the Clone Storyline had him cloning his own body at a much younger age...maybe on par with Peter's age.