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  1. #1
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    Default Questions about Swamp Thing's origins

    Well, my questions are simple... they are related to Swamp Thing's origins.


    1- Is Holland's bio-restorative serum having been "retconned" (by Moore) as totally useless/unnecessary in the creation of Swamp Thing? I'm saying this because the other members of the Parliament of Trees have been created when an animal burning in flames have met the earth. No serum involved, of course. This angle kinda disappoints me, but I'm asking anyway...


    2- In the new DC continuity, is Swamp Thing still the creator of the Parliament of Trees via time travel? And are the older members of the Parliament to be considered "copies" of Swamp Thing/Alec anyway? I just haven't read those stories (yet).


    3- Is the new DC continuity discarding the Alan Moore origin?


    4- Was the final Alan Moore SW story suitable for being considered as the "definitive ending" of Swamp Thing, theorically speaking?



    Thank you so much.

  2. #2
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    Afaik Swamp Things are entirely tied to the Green. Their elemental beings and transforming into one requires you to die by fire. The bio restorative is nothing afaik.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Afaik Swamp Things are entirely tied to the Green. Their elemental beings and transforming into one requires you to die by fire. The bio restorative is nothing afaik.
    I understand. Since hundreds and hundreds of people died in the fire and their corpses also met the earth, why we haven't got tons of Swamp Things before Alec?

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    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    In the New 52, the bio-restorative was essential in making Alec Holland into Swamp Thing because, at the time, The Parliament's base at Amazon jungle was found by The Rot's slaves and burned. They're dying and they weren't strong enough to transform him.

    Also in New 52, there's been previous Swamp Things before Holland, but I don't know how often. There's one who's a World War pilot, then another unnamed one killed by Anton Arcane. They're like a series of Champion in their fight against The Rot.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 08-07-2019 at 09:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    In the New 52, the bio-restorative was essential in making Alec Holland into Swamp Thing because, at the time, The Parliament's base at Amazon jungle was found by The Rot's slaves and burned. They're dying and they weren't strong enough to transform him.
    Yeah, got it. And what about the Alan Moore continuity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    I understand. Since hundreds and hundreds of people died in the fire and their corpses also met the earth, why we haven't got tons of Swamp Things before Alec?
    Because they werent chosen to be elementals.

    Essentially if the Green chooses you (as well as certain other elements) you have to die by fire to be reborn as a champion. Martin Stein for example was going to be a fire elemental but because of Ronnie Raymond he didnt die and became firestorm.

  7. #7
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    In the Alan Moore origin, you were supposed to pick up that he was referencing other muck monsters that appeared in the comics before Swampy, like the Heap (Hillman, 1942). Wikipedia gives his origin:

    The original Heap was formerly Baron Eric von Emmelman (his last name also sometimes spelled Emmelmann), a World War I German flying ace who was shot down in 1918 over a Polish swamp. Clinging to the smallest shred of life through sheer force of will (and, as it was later revealed, with the mystic help of the goddess Ceres, later to be referred to more generically in the series as Mother Nature), through the decades his body decayed and intermingled with the vegetation around him, becoming one with the marshland itself until at last a shaggy, shambling half-world creature neither animal nor man arose from the muck during the early years of World War II, a creature which would become known far and wide as The Heap.

    Resembling a huge humanoid haystack whose most visible facial feature was a dangling root-like snout, the mute monstrosity first battled the lupine-cowled Blackhawk-style Allied ace SkyWolf before turning against its fellow Germans who were now fanatical followers of the evil Nazi cause. Then it took to wandering the globe, helping in its semi-mindless and often misunderstood way those in need and battling those monsters more malevolent than itself.

    Heap was probably based on Theodore Sturgeon's swamp creature "It," a short story published in 1940 (and later adapted by Marvel Comics). Solomon Grundy has a similar origin, but without the element of fire involved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Heap was probably based on Theodore Sturgeon's swamp creature "It," a short story published in 1940 (and later adapted by Marvel Comics). Solomon Grundy has a similar origin, but without the element of fire involved.
    I'm a huge Muck Monsters fan, and I own a book featuring the fantastic, amazing and brilliant tale "IT". That's the absolute template not only for Heap, Man-Thing and Swamp Thing, but even for Hulk (from a "spiritual" standpoint).

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Because they werent chosen to be elementals.

    Essentially if the Green chooses you (as well as certain other elements) you have to die by fire to be reborn as a champion. Martin Stein for example was going to be a fire elemental but because of Ronnie Raymond he didnt die and became firestorm.
    So did the Parliament orchestrate Alec's death?

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    Yeah, got it. And what about the Alan Moore continuity?
    Haven't actually read Alan Moore, but from what I can tell from the New 52 book, the Alan Moore story happened but it wasn't exactly Alec Holland.

    When he burned and dropped to the swamp, The Parliament couldn't save him in time. So they created a construct Swamp Thing with his memory and personality, as close as they can. Every story about that Swamp Thing happened until it died.

    Then, years later, after Brightest Day, Alec Holland has resurrected a human. The last thing he remembered was his wife died and the lab burning, but now he also has memories and feelings from that Swamp Thing and Abby Arcane, but he doesn't even know her name. He doesn't know why The Parliament keeps calling him so he avoids them.

    Abby herself has changed in the interim. She became aware of The Rot's plan to turn her into their Queen, so with Swamp Thing gone but knowing it's Alec, she sought Alec for help. She declared that things have changed and they can't be what they were, especially since Alec himself only have bits of memories and feelings, but as they journey together to stop The Rot, they started to fall in love again.

    This, however, played into The Rot's plan, since as Queen of The Rot and Champion of The Green they're not supposed to be together. Abby was transformed into the Queen because there's no Swamp Thing to save or kill her. Alec finally decided to become Swamp Thing so he can save Abby.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 08-07-2019 at 12:37 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Haven't actually read Alan Moore, but from what I can tell from the New 52 book, the Alan Moore story happened but it wasn't exactly Alec Holland.

    When he burned and dropped to the swamp, The Parliament couldn't save him in time. So they created a construct Swamp Thing with his memory and personality, as close as they can. Every story about that Swamp Thing happened until it died.
    Well, I thought the "construct" came to existence when vegetal material absorbed Alec Holland's consciousness and memories via bio-restorative formula.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    Well, I thought the "construct" came to existence when vegetal material absorbed Alec Holland's consciousness and memories via bio-restorative formula.
    They didn't mention the formula for that one. I think in this version the first time the formula was used was when The Parliament burned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    They didn't mention the formula for that one. I think in this version the first time the formula was used was when The Parliament burned.
    Ah ok. The New 52 version.

  13. #13
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    I've watched "Justice League Dark" yesterday, and it's interesting to see that they re-adapted Swamp Thing's nature for that parallel universe. Swamp Thing has been apparently "built up" around Alec Holland's corpse, and he retains a human consciousness. In the movie, the villain Destiny separates Swamp Thing from Alec Holland's corpse and Thing loses his human consciousness/will.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    1- Is Holland's bio-restorative serum having been "retconned" (by Moore) as totally useless/unnecessary in the creation of Swamp Thing? I'm saying this because the other members of the Parliament of Trees have been created when an animal burning in flames have met the earth. No serum involved, of course. This angle kinda disappoints me, but I'm asking anyway...
    I'm pretty sure that's left fairly ambiguous. I suspect it made it easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    4- Was the final Alan Moore SW story suitable for being considered as the "definitive ending" of Swamp Thing, theorically speaking?
    IMO, that issue is about the weakest issue in Moore's run and falls way short of being any kind of definitive ending. Mark Millar's ending was much more fitting.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's left fairly ambiguous. I suspect it made it easier.
    Yeah. But how does the Parliament "stage" the creation of a new Plant Elemental? Did they cause Alec's death? (the human Alec, I mean).

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