[Spoilers] Batman issue #76

[Restingvoice]

https://geekdad.com/2019/08/review-b...cupied-gotham/

Reading that review, they don't really contradict each other. Corrina just brought out some points that Ray didn't bring up. Ray speaks about what happened in the book and why it's compelling, while Corrina asks how these things happened in the first place, where's the logic and logistics of it, why some characters aren't there, and that's why she doesn't like it.

[Tzigone]

while Corrina asks how these things happened in the first place, where's the logic and logistics of it, why some characters aren't there, and that's why she doesn't like it.

That's where I am. For me, it just doesn't make that much logical sense. So I can't enjoy it. Even some of the explanations given to make some of it make sense don't stand up to the sniff test to me. A certain amount of suspending disbelief is necessary for comics, of course, but that, for me is that a man can fly and such. The internal logic still has to make sense.

The idea that Selina is Bruce's only hope for happiness doesn't work for, either. Though that he could think that way sort of does - he has a history of that kind of stupidity. As Corrina said, Selina's logic on wedding cancel didn't make sense, either.

There is, of course, the possibility that everything make more sense in hindsight once the story is done. But that comes to the "writing for tpb" that's been referenced before. I can't follow along month after month after month of things seeming either very out of character or very nonsensical. For a short-term story arc, absolutely. But not for as many issues as this has lasted.

[Inversed]

The idea that Selina is Bruce's only hope for happiness doesn't work for, either. Though that he could think that way sort of does - he has a history of that kind of stupidity. As Corrina said, Selina's logic on wedding cancel didn't make sense, either.

I will argue this because I know its been brought up alot about why Selina matters so much to Bruce in comparison to everyone else in his life. And I think its simply in the case of family love vs. significant other love.

Alfred, the Robins, all the other heroes, obviously mean so much to him, but they are his family. The ones you've been closest to for the longer period of time, with the mutual platonic love where they care for each other. Selina, on the other hand, isn't family. She's the outsider whom a deeper connection is developed despite being an outsider, a love that goes beyond traditional family love.

It's basically a situation of asking why you would be depressed that your S.O. left you when you still have your family. Obviously they mean alot to you, but your S.O. also meant alot to you in a very different way, and then add that you're also Batman, who has MANY issues already, its gonna hit him hard. Now whether you think Batman should deal with that to begin with is another question, but I do think why Selina matters to him that much compared to others does make sense.

Also side note about the issue, I really loved that little moment when she's talking to the unconscious Bruce about how she knows her stealing his wrong, even for the reason why she's doing it, and you see her with her tear down her eye saying that if he can just wake up, she'll never do it again. It's the type of characterization I always love seeing explored from her.

[Frontier]

I've always had some difficulty buying into Bruce placing so much of his ideal of happiness on just Selina and their relationship at the expense of everything else, to the point he'd react so violently at her leaving him at the altar (and I mean, compared to the people he's seen die and the numerous other times women have left him it seemed kind of minor in the grand scheme of things), but that's kind of how King writes relationships.

[Pohzee]

The issue not have Jason, Duke, or Cassandra was my favorite part about it too!

[Chubistian]

I've always had some difficulty buying into Bruce placing so much of his ideal of happiness on just Selina and their relationship at the expense of everything else, to the point he'd react so violently at her leaving him at the altar (and I mean, compared to the people he's seen die and the numerous other times women have left him it seemed kind of minor in the grand scheme of things), but that's kind of how King writes relationships.

Well, Batman can be kind of an ass when it comes to rejection

[Ansa]

I will argue this because I know its been brought up alot about why Selina matters so much to Bruce in comparison to everyone else in his life. And I think its simply in the case of family love vs. significant other love.

Alfred, the Robins, all the other heroes, obviously mean so much to him, but they are his family. The ones you've been closest to for the longer period of time, with the mutual platonic love where they care for each other. Selina, on the other hand, isn't family. She's the outsider whom a deeper connection is developed despite being an outsider, a love that goes beyond traditional family love.

It's basically a situation of asking why you would be depressed that your S.O. left you when you still have your family. Obviously they mean alot to you, but your S.O. also meant alot to you in a very different way, and then add that you're also Batman, who has MANY issues already, its gonna hit him hard. Now whether you think Batman should deal with that to begin with is another question, but I do think why Selina matters to him that much compared to others does make sense.

Also side note about the issue, I really loved that little moment when she's talking to the unconscious Bruce about how she knows her stealing his wrong, even for the reason why she's doing it, and you see her with her tear down her eye saying that if he can just wake up, she'll never do it again. It's the type of characterization I always love seeing explored from her.

Still, the idea that getting left at the altar is worse than your children dying is simply repellent.

[dietrich]

Still, the idea that getting left at the altar is worse than your children dying is simply repellent.

That's the Batman you can kill my kids and hurt my father figure but mess with my lady.....

Crazy Steve is a paragon compared to this mess whose brains are located in his tights.

[Korath]

I said it in the Damian thread, but if this run truly is set to change Batman for a generation, and that DC will hold true to it, well, I hope Damian give up on the Robin mantle to become a solo hero/leader of a team he can trust (Wallace and Crush would be must have for me, but if Maya and Suren could return too, I would be really happy).

With the terrible father that Batman has been since Rebirth started, with the exception of Metal where he genuinely cared for his Batfamily, it would be not only logical but necessary for Damian to cut lose his ties with both his parents and their terrible influence on him.

[Steven Caldwell]

Batman would never let anything get in the way of his mission. Including feelings for a woman.
King writes Batman as a sniveling teenager, not as a man.

[Korath]

So, I was hoping, against all reason, that in the light of re-reading Batman 75 after 76, things would read better. Spoiler alert : it didn't. Gotham-Girl's spiel still is pathetically unsufferable for all the wrong and right reasons, for instance.

But what shocked me most is that Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum were clearly serving Bane at the end of 75, strapping Two-Face to the chair for the Pirate to mess with. And in issue 76 they are on the run ?

What the hell is happening ? Can't King even manage that modicum of coherence or does he just don't care ? Is it artistic mistake (it can happen) ? Are the events of 76 in Gotham before those of 75 ? How does any of this make sense ?

[Tzigone]

I will argue this because I know its been brought up alot about why Selina matters so much to Bruce in comparison to everyone else in his life. And I think its simply in the case of family love vs. significant other love.

Alfred, the Robins, all the other heroes, obviously mean so much to him, but they are his family. The ones you've been closest to for the longer period of time, with the mutual platonic love where they care for each other. Selina, on the other hand, isn't family. She's the outsider whom a deeper connection is developed despite being an outsider, a love that goes beyond traditional family love.

It's basically a situation of asking why you would be depressed that your S.O. left you when you still have your family. Obviously they mean alot to you, but your S.O. also meant alot to you in a very different way, and then add that you're also Batman, who has MANY issues already, its gonna hit him hard. Now whether you think Batman should deal with that to begin with is another question, but I do think why Selina matters to him that much compared to others does make sense.

Also side note about the issue, I really loved that little moment when she's talking to the unconscious Bruce about how she knows her stealing his wrong, even for the reason why she's doing it, and you see her with her tear down her eye saying that if he can just wake up, she'll never do it again. It's the type of characterization I always love seeing explored from her.

I'm not talking about him being upset because she dumped him. I'm talking about the notion that she is his one and only chance at ever being happy. There was never one before her and will never be one after her and without her there is no possibility of the character being happy. I don't agree with that. Once upon a time, he was happy before he was with her. Him thinking "oh, my chance is lost" is understandable. The narrative actually supporting it is not. It seems to be set up where only Selina can save him from himself. That doesn't work for me.

I ship Bruce and Selina, but I don't like this degree of "no one else matters" and devaluing his other relationships (particularly with his children). I'm glad I'm not reading every issue, or I'd probably be turning against the ship. I really hate the "Bat" and "Cat" thing, too. It's too performance, too costume, to me. I find names more intimate, despite Bruce's issues with identity at times. And even if I didn't, both parts of their identities matter (not happy with the devaluation of Bruce as opposed to Batman in recent...decades?). And the entire concept of secret marriage was "yuck." Either commit to it or don't, you know? Which I guess "don't" happened.

I don't like that from Selina, either. Change has to come from within, because she wants to be better, do good, etc. It should absolutely not be in service to Bruce's happiness (yes, I understand this isn't a rational promise to Bruce). Likewise, Bruce's happiness, his decision to try to be happy and find fulfillment in life outside Batman cannot come from her. It has to be internal. It won't last if it isn't, and if they pursued a relationship in that circumstance he'd likely end up treating her as crappily as he ended up treating his kids. More than that, though, one person should not bear the responsibility of another person's long-term happiness or mental health.

[Frontier]

I'm not talking about him being upset because she dumped him. I'm talking about the notion that she is his one and only chance at ever being happy. There was never one before her and will never be one after her and without her there is no possibility of the character being happy. I don't agree with that. Once upon a time, he was happy before he was with her. Him thinking "oh, my chance is lost" is understandable. The narrative actually supporting it is not. It seems to be set up where only Selina can save him from himself. That doesn't work for me.

I ship Bruce and Selina, but I don't like this degree of "no one else matters" and devaluing his other relationships (particularly with his children). I'm glad I'm not reading every issue, or I'd probably be turning against the ship. I really hate the "Bat" and "Cat" thing, too. It's too performance, too costume, to me. I find names more intimate, despite Bruce's issues with identity at times. And even if I didn't, both parts of their identities matter (not happy with the devaluation of Bruce as opposed to Batman in recent...decades?). And the entire concept of secret marriage was "yuck." Either commit to it or don't, you know? Which I guess "don't" happened.

I don't like that from Selina, either. Change has to come from within, because she wants to be better, do good, etc. It should absolutely not be in service to Bruce's happiness (yes, I understand this isn't a rational promise to Bruce). Likewise, Bruce's happiness, his decision to try to be happy and find fulfillment in life outside Batman cannot come from her. It has to be internal. It won't last if it isn't, and if they pursued a relationship in that circumstance he'd likely end up treating her as crappily as he ended up treating his kids. More than that, though, one person should not bear the responsibility of another person's long-term happiness or mental health.

Part of why I've always been kind of wary of the marriage was because The Button framed the proposal as Bruce somewhat in desperate need of companionship to make up for how screwed up and unhappy he feels he is, for the same reason Selina agreed to it, which didn't feel like a good reason to propose marraige.

I also miss when Bruce and Selina actually called each other by their actual names. I mean, used to be Bruce called her Selina all the time. It was like their thing.

[Korath]

Reading that review, they don't really contradict each other. Corrina just brought out some points that Ray didn't bring up. Ray speaks about what happened in the book and why it's compelling, while Corrina asks how these things happened in the first place, where's the logic and logistics of it, why some characters aren't there, and that's why she doesn't like it.

I would say that, for me, what happens in a story can't be enjoyable if plot holes, inconsistencies and a lack of internal logic are so prevalent that I can't ignore them. And to me, King's run since at least issue 50 (which was the tipping point for me, since I supported his run whit a passion before it) has been plagued by such problems.

[Batman Begins 2005]

I'm so ready for King's Batman run to end, felt that way for some time.