[Spoilers] Batman issue #76

[Korath]

I said it in the Damian thread, but if this run truly is set to change Batman for a generation, and that DC will hold true to it, well, I hope Damian give up on the Robin mantle to become a solo hero/leader of a team he can trust (Wallace and Crush would be must have for me, but if Maya and Suren could return too, I would be really happy).

With the terrible father that Batman has been since Rebirth started, with the exception of Metal where he genuinely cared for his Batfamily, it would be not only logical but necessary for Damian to cut lose his ties with both his parents and their terrible influence on him.

[Tzigone]

I will argue this because I know its been brought up alot about why Selina matters so much to Bruce in comparison to everyone else in his life. And I think its simply in the case of family love vs. significant other love.

Alfred, the Robins, all the other heroes, obviously mean so much to him, but they are his family. The ones you've been closest to for the longer period of time, with the mutual platonic love where they care for each other. Selina, on the other hand, isn't family. She's the outsider whom a deeper connection is developed despite being an outsider, a love that goes beyond traditional family love.

It's basically a situation of asking why you would be depressed that your S.O. left you when you still have your family. Obviously they mean alot to you, but your S.O. also meant alot to you in a very different way, and then add that you're also Batman, who has MANY issues already, its gonna hit him hard. Now whether you think Batman should deal with that to begin with is another question, but I do think why Selina matters to him that much compared to others does make sense.

Also side note about the issue, I really loved that little moment when she's talking to the unconscious Bruce about how she knows her stealing his wrong, even for the reason why she's doing it, and you see her with her tear down her eye saying that if he can just wake up, she'll never do it again. It's the type of characterization I always love seeing explored from her.

I'm not talking about him being upset because she dumped him. I'm talking about the notion that she is his one and only chance at ever being happy. There was never one before her and will never be one after her and without her there is no possibility of the character being happy. I don't agree with that. Once upon a time, he was happy before he was with her. Him thinking "oh, my chance is lost" is understandable. The narrative actually supporting it is not. It seems to be set up where only Selina can save him from himself. That doesn't work for me.

I ship Bruce and Selina, but I don't like this degree of "no one else matters" and devaluing his other relationships (particularly with his children). I'm glad I'm not reading every issue, or I'd probably be turning against the ship. I really hate the "Bat" and "Cat" thing, too. It's too performance, too costume, to me. I find names more intimate, despite Bruce's issues with identity at times. And even if I didn't, both parts of their identities matter (not happy with the devaluation of Bruce as opposed to Batman in recent...decades?). And the entire concept of secret marriage was "yuck." Either commit to it or don't, you know? Which I guess "don't" happened.

I don't like that from Selina, either. Change has to come from within, because she wants to be better, do good, etc. It should absolutely not be in service to Bruce's happiness (yes, I understand this isn't a rational promise to Bruce). Likewise, Bruce's happiness, his decision to try to be happy and find fulfillment in life outside Batman cannot come from her. It has to be internal. It won't last if it isn't, and if they pursued a relationship in that circumstance he'd likely end up treating her as crappily as he ended up treating his kids. More than that, though, one person should not bear the responsibility of another person's long-term happiness or mental health.

[Ansa]

I said it in the Damian thread, but if this run truly is set to change Batman for a generation, and that DC will hold true to it, well, I hope Damian give up on the Robin mantle to become a solo hero/leader of a team he can trust (Wallace and Crush would be must have for me, but if Maya and Suren could return too, I would be really happy).

With the terrible father that Batman has been since Rebirth started, with the exception of Metal where he genuinely cared for his Batfamily, it would be not only logical but necessary for Damian to cut lose his ties with both his parents and their terrible influence on him.

For that to happen DC would have to aknowledge that Bruce has been an ass and a neglectful parent for how long now? Since the start of Rebirth? Longer? I think the last time those two interacted on a regular basis was Tomasi's Batman and Robin run.

King's run isn't focused on how Bruce's actions make the rest of the family feel. He didn't even bother to mention what exactly happened after Damian and co witnessed Bruce punching Tim in the face for trying to be supportive. I assume all of them left him after that stunt, but we don't know, since apparently it wasn't important enough to show or tell us. Apparently it was more important to have Thomas sing "home on the range" for an entire issue.

I wouldn't be suprised if Bruce gets to give a speech about how they all have to take back Gotham together and everyone simply forgives him for his shitty behaviour because he's Batman. Wouldn't be the first time.

[Frontier]

I'm not talking about him being upset because she dumped him. I'm talking about the notion that she is his one and only chance at ever being happy. There was never one before her and will never be one after her and without her there is no possibility of the character being happy. I don't agree with that. Once upon a time, he was happy before he was with her. Him thinking "oh, my chance is lost" is understandable. The narrative actually supporting it is not. It seems to be set up where only Selina can save him from himself. That doesn't work for me.

I ship Bruce and Selina, but I don't like this degree of "no one else matters" and devaluing his other relationships (particularly with his children). I'm glad I'm not reading every issue, or I'd probably be turning against the ship. I really hate the "Bat" and "Cat" thing, too. It's too performance, too costume, to me. I find names more intimate, despite Bruce's issues with identity at times. And even if I didn't, both parts of their identities matter (not happy with the devaluation of Bruce as opposed to Batman in recent...decades?). And the entire concept of secret marriage was "yuck." Either commit to it or don't, you know? Which I guess "don't" happened.

I don't like that from Selina, either. Change has to come from within, because she wants to be better, do good, etc. It should absolutely not be in service to Bruce's happiness (yes, I understand this isn't a rational promise to Bruce). Likewise, Bruce's happiness, his decision to try to be happy and find fulfillment in life outside Batman cannot come from her. It has to be internal. It won't last if it isn't, and if they pursued a relationship in that circumstance he'd likely end up treating her as crappily as he ended up treating his kids. More than that, though, one person should not bear the responsibility of another person's long-term happiness or mental health.

Part of why I've always been kind of wary of the marriage was because The Button framed the proposal as Bruce somewhat in desperate need of companionship to make up for how screwed up and unhappy he feels he is, for the same reason Selina agreed to it, which didn't feel like a good reason to propose marraige.

I also miss when Bruce and Selina actually called each other by their actual names. I mean, used to be Bruce called her Selina all the time. It was like their thing.

[Kuwagaton]

I guess it was too much to ask for King to respect Captain Atom.

Cool art though.

Eh, Snyder didn't either. I will gladly give my copies of Rise and Fall to whomever has the power to use him at D.C. if that's what they want.

[BatmanJones]

I guess it was too much to ask for King to respect Captain Atom.

Cool art though.

He used Captain Atom to demonstrate that nobody, not even someone as powerful as him, could get past Gotham Girl and bust into Gotham. Tim went on to say in that issue that Captain Atom could go toe to toe with Superman. I'm not sure how that reads as disrespect; to me, it reads as the opposite.

[Rakzo]

Just for the record, my problem is not that Gotham Girl beat Captain Atom (I mean, it kinda is because I hate how King pushes a character that basically nobody likes over a classic one but not the point), my problem is that he poorly portrayed Nate by making him brag about his powers when any Captain Atom fan will tell you that Nate is one of the most humble men around.

[Korath]

Just for the record, my problem is not that Gotham Girl beat Captain Atom (I mean, it kinda is because I hate how King pushes a character that basically nobody likes over a classic one but not the point), my problem is that he poorly portrayed Nate by making him a Government's pawn and brag about his powers when any Captain Atom fan will tell you that yes, Nate is a soldier but he's also one of the most humble men around who also knows when to question people in power when necessary.

And that's perhaps the saddest thing about King's run. He could have built memorable new characters, like Gotham-Girl, but all he did was destroy everything which came before him. It's especially galling that he would call Damian a spoiled child from Tim's mouth when the kid was never spoiled, far from the contrary, he had to earn everything he is and has today.

[K. Jones]

It's a trope at this point for Captain Atom to be floating at the edge of some conflict, getting somewhat involved because it's too early in the story for it to be Superman. That's like all he does anymore. I'd rather see him disconnect from his humanity and become mysterious and vague, frankly, and not want to get involved. A conscientious objector of humanity.

BUT! Yeah, he's always pigeonholed into roles like this.

I actually am fine with Gotham Girl being OP. There's a whole point to it, not the least of which is that she's going to die. I am a little curious about the specifics of how much power usage and what the process was to give her those powers and how Bane of all people hooked that up. Making god-level metas can't be cheap or easy and I'm not even sure Batman could do it. I'll grant that a lot of what Batman "can do", with some ambition, Bane could do, too.

[Inversed]

Still, the idea that getting left at the altar is worse than your children dying is simply repellent.

Don't really see it like that. We've seen Bruce take the deaths of his family members very hardly in the past. The only reason this seems so much worse in comparison is because of a villain who is actively messing and screwing with him because of said dumping (which he manipulated into happening), so its an onslaught of stress and paranoia he has to deal with, versus just the pure grieving periods of the deaths.

It's not trying to say Selina means more to Bruce than his family in general, but it is saying that Selina means more to Bruce than his family in specific aspects of his life, which is the case for almost anyone with a significant other.

I'm not talking about him being upset because she dumped him. I'm talking about the notion that she is his one and only chance at ever being happy. There was never one before her and will never be one after her and without her there is no possibility of the character being happy. I don't agree with that. Once upon a time, he was happy before he was with her. Him thinking "oh, my chance is lost" is understandable. The narrative actually supporting it is not. It seems to be set up where only Selina can save him from himself. That doesn't work for me.

I ship Bruce and Selina, but I don't like this degree of "no one else matters" and devaluing his other relationships (particularly with his children). I'm glad I'm not reading every issue, or I'd probably be turning against the ship. I really hate the "Bat" and "Cat" thing, too. It's too performance, too costume, to me. I find names more intimate, despite Bruce's issues with identity at times. And even if I didn't, both parts of their identities matter (not happy with the devaluation of Bruce as opposed to Batman in recent...decades?). And the entire concept of secret marriage was "yuck." Either commit to it or don't, you know? Which I guess "don't" happened.

I don't like that from Selina, either. Change has to come from within, because she wants to be better, do good, etc. It should absolutely not be in service to Bruce's happiness (yes, I understand this isn't a rational promise to Bruce). Likewise, Bruce's happiness, his decision to try to be happy and find fulfillment in life outside Batman cannot come from her. It has to be internal. It won't last if it isn't, and if they pursued a relationship in that circumstance he'd likely end up treating her as crappily as he ended up treating his kids. More than that, though, one person should not bear the responsibility of another person's long-term happiness or mental health.

I don't think of it as them saying she is "The One" because there's been no one else like her in his life, but because it was the closest he's been able to connect with someone on that level in a long period of time. Hell, considering that Mask Of The Phantasm is now gonna be canon, that means Bruce already did propose to Andrea and dealt with this dilemma of losing this chance of happiness once before.

Ultimately, I don't see it as just "Selina is the only person who can save Bruce", but also "Bruce is the only one who can save Selina", because they've both been broken this long while due to their lack of closure. She didn't leave him because of any true feelings or intentions, it was a lie/manipulation, something which Bruce's deep inner self believes to be true in Knightmares, so it makes sense to me why in order for them both to move on, no matter in which direction, this is something that needs to be repaired between them.

And I would say that it is clear that Selina does want to do good and be better for herself, its her impulses that keep her coming back to do bad, even in this case where she's making excuses for why she's doing it now, while deep down she really doesn't want to anymore. It's really the main reason why, this story at least, thinks they should be together, they're both extremely screwed up people in different ways, and their similarities and differences are what compliment each other and make them better.

[Ansa]

Don't really see it like that. We've seen Bruce take the deaths of his family members very hardly in the past. The only reason this seems so much worse in comparison is because of a villain who is actively messing and screwing with him because of said dumping (which he manipulated into happening), so its an onslaught of stress and paranoia he has to deal with, versus just the pure grieving periods of the deaths.

King made it pretty clear inside and outside of comics that he believes that this is the first time someone broke Batman and that this is the worst thing that has ever happened to him. Period. He's not really subtle about that. He makes the Robins even joke about their deaths on more than one occasion.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

I liked the art, I'm a big Daniels fan, though he seems to be drawing his Batman a bit more slender these days.

With King, not much happens as usual. It was nice seeing the Robin's appear, even if the dialogue was a bit ouf of character.

I'm not a huge Captain Atom fan, always seemed kind of C list to me, but it was only one punch and Gotham Girl is pushing her self closer to death with no regard to her life.

[Nick Miller]

Me: alright lets see what King has in store, i like tony daniel, i like Gotham girl

Also me: still UNREADABLE. Its so bad, the editors probably dont look at it at this point. PRINT IT!

Each sentence worse than the previous one. 9 more issues!

Eisner my ass

[Celgress]

Well, we still have emotionally crippled Batman. Oh, and Gotham Girl beat Captain Atom, yay? *sigh* I so hope Damian ditches the Robin identity for one of his own along with distancing himself from his awful father.

I tried I really did people but after two issues I'm dropping this book again. I'm out *mike drop*

[BloodOps]

Can't wait for Dick to rally the troops and lead the comeback against Bane while Bruce heals up.