HOUSE OF X [02] : The Uncanny Life of Moira X *Spoilers*

[hawkeyefan]

The story in question was Moira's death. So, for her character and Xavier's, it wasn't inconsequential.

Some degree of continuity is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, long-term investment in the characters and their stories is pointless. The problem with Marvel, unlike DC, is they mostly refuse to nail down clear-cut break points, leaving it to individual reader headcanon. My personal threshold is when the sliding timeline and/or retcons (such as this one with Moira) pile up to the point that the original stories no longer make sense within the context of those changes. Hence, why I see this as a soft reboot.

That scene was from the story where she died? I didn't recall that at all, but I admittedly haven't read that issue since it came out. I wasn't really a fan of the books at that point, and was buying them out of habit and a misguided completionist mentality at that point. I never liked that they killed her off in the first place.

It sounds odd that in the same issue where she dies, they have her and Xavier meet up on the astral plane for a fling, but okay. Perhaps I should reword my earlier statement to be "some inconsequential part of a comic from years ago shouldn't matter all that much".

I get that continuity is an advertised part of the world and part of the appeal, but it simply can't be perfect. I like the less obtrusive way Marvel handles it, to be honest.....just less disruptive. Maybe people never read any past contradictions, or maybe they forgot, or maybe they're forgiving of that stuff. A hard reboot is much more disruptive. And I'd also argue that all those little soft reboots are still present in DC, anyway. Their big reboots don't really seem to ever actually solve the problem.

[hawkeyefan]

The fact that Destiny was aware of Moira, I suspect Mystique may have been possibly working with Moira or hired by her to help fake her death.

I don't think Destiny remained aware of Moira after having Pyro kill her and her life restarting again. Moira couldn't make a move against Destiny because that would reveal her again, so you have to figure Moira would have avoided her as much as possible. Unless she came up with a reason to let Destiny know about her again.

Obviously, the fact that Destiny dies on Muir Island with Moira nearby could come into play. And the fact that Mystique is the one who killed Moira is potentially relevant as well. We'll see if Hickman does something deeper with these connections.

[TheRealWashout]

I don't think Destiny remained aware of Moira after having Pyro kill her and her life restarting again. Moira couldn't make a move against Destiny because that would reveal her again, so you have to figure Moira would have avoided her as much as possible. Unless she came up with a reason to let Destiny know about her again.

Obviously, the fact that Destiny dies on Muir Island with Moira nearby could come into play. And the fact that Mystique is the one who killed Moira is potentially relevant as well. We'll see if Hickman does something deeper with these connections.

I don't have the issue in front of me, but didn't Destiny outright tell Moira she would always know about her?

[cranger]

I don't have the issue in front of me, but didn't Destiny outright tell Moira she would always know about her?

Destiny says three things:
1) She is older and will have her powers before Moira is reborn
2) Will always see if Moira tries to attack mutants just as she did this time
3) Will see Moira if Moira tries to kill her.

[Havok83]

Something had to be rebooted, because Moira definitely could not have ever been a mutant. Such a big deal was made about Legacy affecting her flatsca self. Mystique even admitted to having Legacy altered just to hurt her.

and it turns out Mystique was wrong considering Moira was a mutant and the virus was likely going to hurt her regardless

[TOTALITY]

That scene was from the story where she died? I didn't recall that at all, but I admittedly haven't read that issue since it came out. I wasn't really a fan of the books at that point, and was buying them out of habit and a misguided completionist mentality at that point. I never liked that they killed her off in the first place.

It sounds odd that in the same issue where she dies, they have her and Xavier meet up on the astral plane for a fling, but okay. Perhaps I should reword my earlier statement to be "some inconsequential part of a comic from years ago shouldn't matter all that much".

I get that continuity is an advertised part of the world and part of the appeal, but it simply can't be perfect. I like the less obtrusive way Marvel handles it, to be honest.....just less disruptive. Maybe people never read any past contradictions, or maybe they forgot, or maybe they're forgiving of that stuff. A hard reboot is much more disruptive. And I'd also argue that all those little soft reboots are still present in DC, anyway. Their big reboots don't really seem to ever actually solve the problem.

Marvel continuity is like a precarious tower of cards duct taped with head canon and no-prizes and ‘generous’ readings.... or alternately like a many many many faceted prism and each new creator must shine a flashlight from the precise angle that hits just the facets they need to highlight and not the incompatible ones... either way I love it! Because when the story feels emotionally true, you can forgive that it isn’t shining the flashlight from every angle at once.

Of course, the downside of this is that everyone is emotionally attached to some pretty specific things, all totally valid, and it’s not always fun when those things are out of play in a given story. (Like for me, every writer who doesn’t follow up on Kitty’s queer subtext, haha.)

That said I think this Moira stuff does add some very fun possibilities for “generous readings” of a lot of past stuff! Her confrontations with Magneto in X-Men 1-3 (‘91), her contraction of the legacy virus, the way Destiny happens to be killed on Muir Island by Xavier’s offspring who may not have existed until life 10... of course I imagine these are some of the beats Hickman is specifically building around, and some minor Moira appearances we’ll have to be like “ehh I guess she was doing a good job playing it close to the vest!” Just like, say, Lockheed and his retconned intelligence, except with way more positives to make it worthwhile IMO. (and I’m not opposed to the Lockheed thing!)

My favorite thing about this retcon is how it gives Moira an equal seat at the Xavier/Magneto (/Apocalypse/Sinister) table as founding pillars of mutant ideology. It never felt right to be how paternalistic that aspect of X-Men mythology felt, when the franchise is otherwise so inclusively female (and queer... uh we’ll duct tape that part in too somewhere! ��) But that addition earns a lot of “I’ll squint until it fits” from me!

[powerpax]

I grew up reading Moira in X-books starting over 30 years ago. I've always loved her. To me this is still Moira, just a much more complicated iteration.

As for Dream's End I don't consider this story a soft reboot based on that. We don't know what a "Shi'ar golem" is and it likely only applied to the body the X-Men had aboard the Blackbird (or wherever) during those issues. Moira was still fully capable of linking with Charles telepathically, which is the bulk of her involvement in her 'death scenes.' Nothing about what we've seen so far ruptures that continuity.

[salarta]

Did you actually buy and read this issue?

Nope! Not gonna either.

This is where someone says "You have to read it or you can't talk about it," and I say "I can pick up what I need to know from previews, images, interviews, etc," then someone says that's not enough cause you need to see how it plays out, then I say the things I look at give enough of a glimpse, and cycle back around. It's an argument I've had when people tried to get me to buy and play 3rd Birthday, Final Fantasy 13, Resident Evil 6, etc. If I did read it, all that would happen is I read it, my expectations are reaffirmed, I say so, and what I say gets dismissed anyway cause "You already made up your mind before you read it." Makes more sense for me to save my money for things I want, like fanart of Lorna to fill the void Marvel won't fill.

If Moira faked her death, then who did Xavier make love to in the astral plane when she "died?" A Shi'ar Golem? Ew.

Nurse Ratched, obviously.

[FUBAR007]

Marvel's approach is infinitely better. DC has spent the better part of 3 decades trying establish "break points" and they all spectacularly failed.

In terms of establishing clear "break points", they worked just fine. Also, post-Crisis DC, overall, did way, way better sales-wise than pre-Crisis (until the entire comics market imploded in the mid-90s). In the early 80s, DC was in such bad shape that Marvel considered buying them.

The problems came when they lost their nerve and started walking stuff back, trying to have their cake and eat it, too. Even still, both Crisis and Flashpoint remain pretty clear dividing lines. Zero Hour, too, for the LOSH.

[powerpax]

I'm sorry, but IMO a sweeping macro-critique of a major event book or of Marvel editorial does not make much sense if you a) do not read the books in question and/or b) have not read the larger line for very long.

[pandafarmer]

I'm sorry, but IMO a sweeping macro-critique of a major event book or of Marvel editorial does not make much sense if you a) do not read the books in question and/or b) have not read the larger line for very long.

Eh, let them if it makes them feel better. Honestly with anything Hickman you can't judge the full run on a couple of issues. I mean he's already crammed in more lore in three issues than most books do in a 6-10 issue arc. Who knows what will happen by October when we finally are able to soak it all in.

But as far as your B comment, I disagree. Then you start going "you're not a real fan if you got into X-Men because of the animated series and not Claremont" or "you're not an X-fan if you disliked Age of Apocalypse." People can and will have their opinions and are allowed to express them. It's up to you on whether or not you choose to give those comments much weight and let them bother you.

[hawkeyefan]

I don't have the issue in front of me, but didn't Destiny outright tell Moira she would always know about her?

Not exactly. She says that she'll always come for Moira if she pulls any more Cure type antics. If Moira tries to remove Destiny, she'll see it coming because that's her power. And she's older than Moira, so Moira can't get to her before her powers manifest.

So ultimately, Destiny doesn't remember Moira so much as she'll always try to stop her if Moira's approach toward mutants is one Destiny doesn't like because that's what she and Mystique do. If she gets close enough to really look at Moira, then she'd realize what she was again.

So we should guess that Moira would have tried to avoid Destiny as much as possible. Which works on a thematic level, too.

Marvel continuity is like a precarious tower of cards duct taped with head canon and no-prizes and ‘generous’ readings.... or alternately like a many many many faceted prism and each new creator must shine a flashlight from the precise angle that hits just the facets they need to highlight and not the incompatible ones... either way I love it! Because when the story feels emotionally true, you can forgive that it isn’t shining the flashlight from every angle at once.

Of course, the downside of this is that everyone is emotionally attached to some pretty specific things, all totally valid, and it’s not always fun when those things are out of play in a given story. (Like for me, every writer who doesn’t follow up on Kitty’s queer subtext, haha.)

That said I think this Moira stuff does add some very fun possibilities for “generous readings” of a lot of past stuff! Her confrontations with Magneto in X-Men 1-3 (‘91), her contraction of the legacy virus, the way Destiny happens to be killed on Muir Island by Xavier’s offspring who may not have existed until life 10... of course I imagine these are some of the beats Hickman is specifically building around, and some minor Moira appearances we’ll have to be like “ehh I guess she was doing a good job playing it close to the vest!” Just like, say, Lockheed and his retconned intelligence, except with way more positives to make it worthwhile IMO. (and I’m not opposed to the Lockheed thing!)

My favorite thing about this retcon is how it gives Moira an equal seat at the Xavier/Magneto (/Apocalypse/Sinister) table as founding pillars of mutant ideology. It never felt right to be how paternalistic that aspect of X-Men mythology felt, when the franchise is otherwise so inclusively female (and queer... uh we’ll duct tape that part in too somewhere! ��) But that addition earns a lot of “I’ll squint until it fits” from me!

That's a much more poetic way of putting it for sure, but I agree. I can understand how fans would be bothered if something they considered a major element of a character is ignored. That's the kind of continuity that to me is important. Somehow, I doubt that Xavier and Moira having a psychic connection after she dies is such an example for many people.

I think there's a difference between a fan who says "I don't like how they ignore Kitty's possible feelings for some of her female teammates" and one who says "this story doesn't work because there's this tiny contradiction from a 15 year old story and I knows muh continuiteeees".

I grew up reading Moira in X-books starting over 30 years ago. I've always loved her. To me this is still Moira, just a much more complicated iteration.

As for Dream's End I don't consider this story a soft reboot based on that. We don't know what a "Shi'ar golem" is and it likely only applied to the body the X-Men had aboard the Blackbird (or wherever) during those issues. Moira was still fully capable of linking with Charles telepathically, which is the bulk of her involvement in her 'death scenes.' Nothing about what we've seen so far ruptures that continuity.

No Prized!

There's obviously a little more to her power than just the reincarnation ability. Destiny says she's a mutant who is invisible to mutants. Perhaps telepathy only works on her if she allows it?

[spirit2011]

In terms of establishing clear "break points", they worked just fine. Also, post-Crisis DC, overall, did way, way better sales-wise than pre-Crisis (until the entire comics market imploded in the mid-90s). In the early 80s, DC was in such bad shape that Marvel considered buying them.

The problems came when they lost their nerve and started walking stuff back, trying to have their cake and eat it, too. Even still, both Crisis and Flashpoint remain pretty clear dividing lines. Zero Hour, too, for the LOSH.

Flashpoint nor zero hour are clear dividing lines

[salarta]

I'm sorry, but IMO a sweeping macro-critique of a major event book or of Marvel editorial does not make much sense if you a) do not read the books in question and/or b) have not read the larger line for very long.

And I understand why you hold that view. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. It's an understandable view to have.

[Rivka]

Then the story isn't about Moira. Adopting Rahne is one of the most significant things about Moira.

My biggest trouble so far is that this story lacks any soul and heart. It's like a bunch of facts. "Moira" comes across as nothing but a plot device. I've also felt that what maded Moira so amazing was her normalcy.

I call the Hickman Moira, Moira MacGuffin. To contrast the Hickman remake with the complex, brilliant, kind and fierce fighter for equality and justice named Moira MacTaggert created by Claremont and Cockrum.