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  1. #16
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    To some degree it's a subjective "I know it when I see it", and you probably have to take the entire creation of Oracle into account, but it carries an implied criticism of the way women are treated in comics and does it by making women and wounds visible and explicit. It also criticises Batman's actions, reactions, and priorities in TKJ in a way that makes them universal: Barbara's words to Batman reaches outside the confines of the panel and hits DC, and arguably the entire comics industry.
    I don’t know if it is subjective. It comments on how women are treated, and how Babs was treated, but ultimately it was as story about reconstruction. Part of the grossness of Babs’ story is she wasn’t even given the respect or thought to actually deconstruct who she was. As Oracle Year One points out what happen to her wasn’t even about her. She was just fodder.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 08-08-2019 at 08:11 PM.

  2. #17
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    Thanks for the input, guys. There were some ideas here that I hadn't considered and I appreciate the debate.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    I don’t know if it is subjective. It comments on how women are treated, and how Babs was treated, but ultimately it was as story about reconstruction. Part of the grossness of Babs’ story is she wasn’t even given the respect or thought to actually deconstruct who she was. As Oracle Year One points out what happen to her wasn’t even about her. She was just fodder.
    Trouble is that the term "reconstruction" is even more vague and nebolous than "deconstruction". I know TVTropes created some sort of popular interpretations of the terms, but those interpretations suffer from both being vague, missing a lot of the point of the original term it borrowed (which was vague to being with), and being too focused on the elements of the work—like plot or characters.

    What Oracle Year One is concerned with here when it comes to the topic of deconstruction isn't the character of Babs. What it deconstructs is rather tropes and conventions of superhero comics: fridging, the moral superiority of the hero (Batman), the eternal return to status quo.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  4. #19
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    It just makes quick comments on them. It doesn’t actually take apart and explore any of that beyond its quick commentary that really just points it out. It’s main objective was to show how they were taking these seemingly discarded pieces to build something new, where Babs is the hero.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 08-09-2019 at 04:44 AM.

  5. #20
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    I think All Star Superman I would say is a good one. Though in a more optimistic manner.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 08-09-2019 at 04:31 AM.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katefan View Post
    So the term "deconstruction" gets thrown around a bit, that idea of a hero being made to perhaps look less heroic as the writer/artist attempts to perhaps humanize them or tell a deeper tale. I think one example might be Frank Miller's Batman, The Dark Knight. The big one of course is Alan Moore/Dave Gibbon's Watchmen. Can anyone here suggest other DC stories or comics, either modern or classic, where deconstructionism is prevalent?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    ...This is probably what you would call reconstruction.
    Not mentioned yet is Kingdom Come which was a bit of both.
    And commentary on the times.
    Golden and Silverage live on in the cheesy nostalgia driven superhero themed restaurant.
    New generation rejects them and Superman and choose instead their golden idol Magog and the fetishised grim dark vigilantes, who are judge and executioners in one. (which were part of the popular 90's boom).
    Batman is put in the role of protecting humanity from them.
    While Superman (as a character and a concept) has to find his way (and his role) back into this new world.

    The whole thing was a commentary on does he fit, if so how? A dated ideal, a power fantasy, something to aspire to, a vision of tomorrow, hope... etc.?
    Last edited by Güicho; 08-09-2019 at 10:16 AM.

  7. #22
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    There seems to be a process of first construction (the original building of a character or concept), then deconstruction (tearing down what was constructed) and then reconstruction.

    Superman was somewhat deconstructed after Crisis, so ALL-STAR SUPERMAN was a reconstruction. The working premise for Grant Morrison was what if there had never been a reboot, but the concept would have still changed with the passage of time as everything does. So Morrison was reconstructing what had existed before. But like with other reconstruction work, there were modern upgrades--improved plumbing, earthquake-proofing, no asbestos.
    celebrating 50 years of 4 beatles crossing a zebra

  8. #23
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    When I think of deconstruction I think of stories where the whole point of the narrative is to call out tropes and conventions of the genre or the form. Not just a character questioning themselves or going through hard times when you're not used to seeing them do so. Something like "Black Hammer" or the recent "Thunderbolt" would be examples of deconstruction to me.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    When I think of deconstruction I think of stories where the whole point of the narrative is to call out tropes and conventions of the genre or the form. Not just a character questioning themselves or going through hard times when you're not used to seeing them do so. Something like "Black Hammer" or the recent "Thunderbolt" would be examples of deconstruction to me.
    I'd agree with this definition, as well as what Vakanai said on the previous page. I also agree that "Kingdom Come" is a good example.

    I think O'Neil's "The Question" went there more than a few times. That Vic Sage could be seen as a comic book hero who gets shot in the head then realizes he's been living a comic book life and begins to question the tropes of violence and heroism that he was born into and whether or not he should still accept them as his existence.

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