Changing Magneto's origin for the movies?

[FUBAR007]

what is the difference between a story like avengers forever that has a cast comprised of characters from specific points of continuity, has an entire issue dedicated to going over continuity, another issue going over continuity and then applying retcons, and a plot about exploring deep-cut continuity settings

and

a modern avengers story that references civil war every now and then or has a paragraph or page summarizing someone's history a few times

So, in your view, it's a question of degree, eh? Now we're getting somewhere.

How was Avengers Forever a crime against comics and good storytelling? Sales-wise, it performed fine relative to the market. Busiek and Pacheco, the creative team, weren't and aren't hacks. It wasn't solicited or marketed as being an entry point for new readers. By what objective standard was it so awful?

[RachelGrey]

I think having Magneto be a survivor of the holocaust is better to keep because it's integral to who he is. He is a Jewish man who survived the Holocaust, that is who he is. Simply explain he has a secondary mutation that causes him to age slowly the same as Mystique.

It's not too far fetched when you are doing a movie about the Eternals who are thousands of years old.

[Star_Jammer]

what is the difference between a story like avengers forever that has a cast comprised of characters from specific points of continuity, has an entire issue dedicated to going over continuity, another issue going over continuity and then applying retcons, and a plot about exploring deep-cut continuity settings

and

a modern avengers story that references civil war every now and then or has a paragraph or page summarizing someone's history a few times

One is a talented writer’s earnest attempt to tell an intriguing story that also served to solve many continuity issues...

...and the other is a “Wee, look at mee, I remember that event from a few years ago!”

[Lucyinthesky]

For the sake of discourse, what about the Holocaust specifically informs Magneto’s character —aside from being a survivor of a genocide?

It gives his pov substance and makes his arguments more compelling, Magneto was a jewish boy born in Germany to a family that loved their country, specially his father who was a former WWI soldier who fought for Germany in the Great War and saw first hand how despite loving and fighting for their country it still became something unrecognizable under a regimen that seek to blame on people like them all their problems, imo this made young Magneto develop a hate/love relationship with a nation and people that oppressed him and his family, and imo this situation is one of the reasons why despite his insistence of being something "beyond human" "a mutant who has forsaken humanity" he still cares for individual people be it humans or mutants. This is my personal take of course but as a Magneto fan is one of the reasons why I like his backstory so much, because it allows a nuance hardly seen in comics in general.

[Ambaryerno]

Is MCU Nick Fury still Nick Fury?

That's a nice handful you got there.

[Snoop Dogg]

So, in your view, it's a question of degree, eh? Now we're getting somewhere.

How was Avengers Forever a crime against comics and good storytelling? Sales-wise, it performed fine relative to the market. Busiek and Pacheco, the creative team, weren't and aren't hacks. It wasn't solicited or marketed as being an entry point for new readers. By what objective standard was it so awful?

Avengers Forever is very good.
It's also impenetrable, and in some areas it doesn't need to be.
The Avengers Forever movie, Endgame, is also impenetrable and not meant to be consumed cold.
The other MCU movies maintain a tight continuity and reference continuity, but are created to be enjoyed cold and are their own stories.
Stories like Avengers Forever and Endgame have to be the exception, because most stories that dense won't be as good as those stories.
The rule should be to try and balance, and the average Marvel movie is the best example. They are connected, but clearly individual stories. And that should apply to comic book runs as well.

[CRaymond]

It gives his pov substance and makes his arguments more compelling, Magneto was a jewish boy born in Germany to a family that loved their country, specially his father who was a former WWI soldier who fought for Germany in the Great War and saw first hand how despite loving and fighting for their country it still became something unrecognizable under a regimen that seek to blame on people like them all their problems, imo this made young Magneto develop a hate/love relationship with a nation and people that oppressed him and his family, and imo this situation is one of the reasons why despite his insistence of being something "beyond human" "a mutant who has forsaken humanity" he still cares for individual people be it humans or mutants. This is my personal take of course but as a Magneto fan is one of the reasons why I like his backstory so much, because it allows a nuance hardly seen in comics in general.

Thank you for replying Lucy. I have to question whether those story elements are exclusive to WW2 Germany. A Rwandan or Cambodian family could have similar experiences.

[Killerbee911]

It is something some of us have suggested. The living survivors of the Holocaust are in their 90s now. You can always give Magneto some long-surviving aspect to his powers. But that creates know a need to fill in the missing time for a character over time that will turn into something convoluted.

1. The first choice is to attach Magneto to similar small fictional event so it can slide along him. He already has stuff with Magda in Vinnytsia which can be flesh out into something bigger. Make Magneto parents the survivors of Holocaust

2. The second choice is to attach Magneto to a different modern-day tragic event that can slide along with him. Sadly they are still genocide events going on Africa so it is a great way to update a character for modern times and help point out a modern problem.

Nothing against the original form of Magneto, I think updated Africa version has to a chance to do some different things in certain areas. Someone got upset the last time I said it but as stand-ins for two American black civil right leaders, it would be interesting if one of them in updated version was Black. There is some strong symbolism and interesting storylines that comes from people just being afraid black men or hating just on skin color alone.

[Glio]

HYDRA locked him in ice in the 60s to experiment with him and using that information is how they used the Mind Gem to empower Pietro and Wanda.

He managed to escape recently.

And that's it

[FUBAR007]

Avengers Forever is very good.
It's also impenetrable, and in some areas it doesn't need to be.
The Avengers Forever movie, Endgame, is also impenetrable and not meant to be consumed cold.
The other MCU movies maintain a tight continuity and reference continuity, but are created to be enjoyed cold and are their own stories.
Stories like Avengers Forever and Endgame have to be the exception, because most stories that dense won't be as good as those stories.
The rule should be to try and balance, and the average Marvel movie is the best example. They are connected, but clearly individual stories. And that should apply to comic book runs as well.

So, dense, consistent continuity--i.e. telling "stories about other stories"--doesn't necessarily preclude quality storytelling. It just hinges on the talent and skill of the writer.

In other words, stories about other stories are just fine as long as they're well-written and presented in context...same as every other story.

Check and mate.

[FUBAR007]

That's a nice handful you got there.

Nice snarkpost. But, not a rebuttal.

[Snoop Dogg]

Thank you for replying Lucy. I have to question whether those story elements are exclusive to WW2 Germany. A Rwandan or Cambodian family could have similar experiences.

You can create circumstances to have the same premise and concept of a character like Luke Cage occur in an Asian country, but then there would be outrage because his identity as an African-American is critically tied to who he is.

Yes, you can look for a similar tragedy and swap it for the Holocaust, but there is no reason to do that. There is no reason to depict these events as interchangeable. There is no reason to defang him by making a fictional origin or giving him a looser connection to the Holocaust. There is no reason to interchange the most important part of a character's identity and dilute what makes them unique.

"Because he would be old" is not a reason in a fantasy universe where we can think of solutions, so the paid professionals obviously can. It's looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, that would hurt more than it would help. Because it wouldn't help at all.

[Lucyinthesky]

Thank you for replying Lucy. I have to question whether those story elements are exclusive to WW2 Germany. A Rwandan or Cambodian family could have similar experiences.

I agree that suffering isn´t a prerrogative of the Holocaust and if Marvel ever made a story about a Rwandan or Cambodian family with the care and love with which they did Magneto testament it would be a great story and a great character to read about, but it doesn´t have to come at the expense of a character already made who already has those elements and also represents a minority who has it´s own characteristics and history.

It´s one of the reasons why I enjoyed the story of Erik Killmonger so much in black panther, here was a character with his own story and relationships
who shared some pov´s with Magneto but was his own character in his own right.

[CRaymond]

I don’t believe being a Holocaust survivor is essential to the character. I’m asking what about the Holocaust specifically informed his character.

[FUBAR007]

I don’t believe being a Holocaust survivor is essential to the character. I’m asking what about the Holocaust specifically informed his character.

Being a survivor of genocide.

What you're really asking is how being Jewish is essential to the character. Essential in a way that being a Cambodian or Rwandan survivor of genocide wouldn't equate.

I'm interested in their answers as well.