Changing Magneto's origin for the movies?

[Rivka]

Thank you for replying Lucy. I have to question whether those story elements are exclusive to WW2 Germany. A Rwandan or Cambodian family could have similar experiences.

I don’t believe being a Holocaust survivor is essential to the character. I’m asking what about the Holocaust specifically informed his character.

Somewhat. Not all Jewish experiences are universal. Lucy mentioned the political betrayal from Magneto’s father following WWI which was important. European culture is different then than now.

Ultimate Magneto wasn’t a Holocaust survivor. I’m wondering what that portrayal lacked aside from the timestamp and trauma.

Magneto's experiences are not only uniquely Jewish experiences of the Shoah, but also as others have mentioned, nothing like what happened has ever happened before or since. These horrible genocides are NOT interchangeable. Marvel has taken great care to show respect to the Holocaust as an historical event and an experience.

Magneto is a Jewish character. It doesn't need any explanation for defense as to how important this is unto itself. His ethnic identity is not up for debate or for exchange. At least it shouldn't be. As I said, it amazes me how tv shows, movies, books, comics seem to think it's okay to replace one minority with another like there's a quota-system and you can't actually add another minority character to a group, you have to replace an existing one. If you can exchange Magneto's ethnic background why not Storm's, or Forge's, or Jubillee's? I don't even understand why anyone would ask.

But as to your original question, Magneto (Max) experienced the full breadth of the growth of fascism in Germany. He grew up in Nuremberg and spied on the Nazi rallies. He saw his uncle nearly beaten to death for having an "Aryan" girlfriend. He saw his pacifist father put trust in the German gov't, and saw the betrayal -- another act of violence. The family witnessed Kristalnacht, fled to Poland and were there when the Germans invaded. He saw the utter destruction of the Polish resistance, the devastation of war. He and his family were herded into the Warsaw ghetto. He lived in the ghetto as people starved all around him, trying to smuggle food to his dying sister. When they realized they were going to be deported to Treblinka, they escaped the ghetto only to be captured and shot on the spot. Young Magneto fell with the bodies of his mother, father, and sister into the pit, buried by other bodies, but his unknown powers saved him. He was captured later and sent to Auschwitz, where he was forced into the Sonderkommando. This is unique to his experience, and crucial to understanding who Magneto is. He helped the Nazis exterminate his own people; many Holocaust survivors called the Sonderkommando members collaborators. History might be kinder, but the members of the squad call themselves "murderers." Magneto has said many times, that he was damned when he was young. He's called himself a murderer and a monster--he helped talk the victims into the gas chambers, telling them they were taking showers. He helped clean out the pyramid of bodies after the gassing was over, he carried the bodies by the thousands to the lifts, and he manned the ovens above, pushing the retorts into the fire. He helped man the fire pits that were opened in 1944; he saw Nazi officers hurl little children alive into the flames, he heard their screams every day.

He was saved from suicide by his beloved Magda, who was in the Gypsy Family Camp with her family. Did Magda ever find out that when her family was all killed in 1944, that he was the one who forced them into the gas chamber? The he was one of the squad that burned their bodies? Did he ever tell her?

Magneto will always be that boy in the striped uniform behind the barbed wire. That's why he's obsessed with power, with making others fear him. He thinks if humans fear him, they'll fear mutants, and not hurt mutants. We know this is flawed thinking. He has no hope. He has no confidence that humans will ever accept mutants. His experiences are so extreme, his sense of loss, of guilt, or horror are who his is. Xavier has tried to convince him, that fear and violence never work in the long run.

When Magneto talks about the fate of mutants, you have to listen to him, because of his experiences during the Holocaust. When he excuses extreme measures -- survival at any cost -- you cut him some slack because he's a survivor. But he's a deeply scarred man--as Xavier knew all along. He's full of rage and pain and self-hatred. As he says in UXM #196, he's done things that can never be forgiven, and he's not talking just about his antics as the costumed Magneto, but his time at Auschwitz.

Please forgive me for linking to my own stuff, but this makes it easier to understand what happened to the Jews at Auschwitz and what happened to Magneto.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/cybe...ando-t242.html

[Lucyinthesky]

(I never collected Ultimate X-Men; thank you for filling me in)

No problem

[AJpyro]

Deaging devices are a thing.

[Ambaryerno]

You've graduated to assertion. Congrats. Still not a rebuttal, though.

Fine, you want a rebuttal? What about Nick Fury is REMOTELY comparable? They’ve already replaced Fury in the books with a Sam Jackson expy after Uatu was killed AND NOBODY HAS NOTICED A DIFFERENCE.

Magneto DEFINED by the experience of the Shoah, which is unique from any other genocide event in history. Yours is a straw man argument devoid of value or substance. PERIOD.

[Killerbee911]

There is no time gap to fill.

Anyway, again, there is ZERO reason to remove Magneto's history and Jewish identity and every reason to keep it.

There is a gap to fill because time keeps sliding and longer the X-men goes on something has to fill that time. There is no telling what content will go in that time will be good. See extended Xavier stories, Second Genesis, First X-men or Matthew Malloy stuff. We are going to differ on opinion but imo it is best for Magneto to get a set up that can slide along with X-men being refresh and update for the era that is in and not be this immortal God-like character which is what will happen.

Of course, there is a reason to change Magneto we are talking it about you just don't agree on the outcome which is fine. You just don't want Magneto to change because he is one few representations of that group I get that better than most. There is a reason why solution 1 was the first option for me. But if they are looking to modernize the X-men on the big screen and set it in modern times. Then early characters are ripe for reinvention/reinterpretation because the set up of world that was those comics didn't accurately reflect the world. And in putting those characters in the more world comparable to ours you have a choice to go in a different for Magneto or Xavier or O5 to fix flaws. The movie universe are basically an Alternate universe. Most comic fans are purist they believe what is put in to print is always the best thing and they grew up with stories so it feels they should never be changed. I get what people are saying But there is three options to what could happen

1. They could change the character and it is worse
2. They could change the character and it is about the same
3. They could change the character and it is better

The last option never crosses people minds

[Lucyinthesky]

There is a gap to fill because time keeps sliding and longer the X-men goes on something has to fill that time. There is no telling what content will go in that time will be good. See extended Xavier stories, Second Genesis, First X-men or Matthew Malloy stuff. We are going to differ on opinion but imo it is best for Magneto to get a set up that can slide along with X-men being refresh and update for the era that is in and not be this immortal God-like character which is what will happen.

Of course, there is a reason to change Magneto we are talking it about you just don't agree on the outcome which is fine. You just don't want Magneto to change because he is one few representations of that group I get that better than most. There is a reason why solution 1 was the first option for me. But if they are looking to modernize the X-men on the big screen and set it in modern times. Then early characters are ripe for reinvention/reinterpretation because the set up of world that was those comics didn't accurately reflect the world. And in putting those characters in the more world comparable to ours you have a choice to go in a different for Magneto or Xavier or O5 to fix flaws. The movie universe are basically an Alternate universe. Most comic fans are purist they believe what is put in to print is always the best thing and they grew up with stories so it feels they should never be changed. I get what people are saying But there is three options to what could happen

1. They could change the character and it is worse
2. They could change the character and it is about the same
3. They could change the character and it is better

The last option never crosses people minds

There´s a problem, the movie universe already introduced Magneto as a Jewish Holocaust survivor, it´s the introduction of the first X-men movie because despite the fact Brian Singer wasn´t in any way a comic purist, he understood that scene was important not only for Magneto as a character but for the X-men as a group. I don´t see why change the entire origin of a character when all you need is a slight retcon to explain his age.

If the MCU just wanted to do a modern story of the marvel universe, why didn´t they change Captain America origin?, why not make him a Vietnam or Afganistan veteran? it´s because that just isn´t who Captain America is and that´s the same reason why they should not change Magneto´s origin if that´s really in their plans.

[FUBAR007]

Fine, you want a rebuttal? What about Nick Fury is REMOTELY comparable? They’ve already replaced Fury in the books with a Sam Jackson expy after Uatu was killed AND NOBODY HAS NOTICED A DIFFERENCE.

My point exactly.

Comics Nick Fury was a New York City born-and-bred white guy who served in WWII with the Howling Commandos who went on after the war to become a super-spy. His father was an English aviator. He was defined by his relationships with the Howling Commandos and his NYC street-tough personality.

The MCU stripped all that away and made him a Boomer-generation black guy from Alabama. Yet, nobody questions that he's still Nick Fury.

Magneto DEFINED by the experience of the Shoah, which is unique from any other genocide event in history.

Every genocide is a unique event in history with its own particular causes, circumstances, and effects.

The thematic core of Magneto is that he's a survivor of genocide who, in his zeal to prevent another one, becomes a genocidal tyrant himself. What aspect of that would be lost in making him a survivor of the Rwandan genocide (or the Cambodian genocide, or the Balkan ethnic cleansings, etc.) as opposed to a survivor of the Holocaust?

[Lucyinthesky]

My point exactly.

Comics Nick Fury was a New York City born-and-bred white guy who served in WWII with the Howling Commandos who went on after the war to become a super-spy. His father was an English aviator. He was defined by his relationships with the Howling Commandos and his NYC street-tough personality.

The MCU stripped all that away and made him a Boomer-generation black guy from Alabama. Yet, nobody questions that he's still Nick Fury.

The main theme of Nick Fury is that he´s a goverment operative that´s why those kinds of changes work on him but it would not work on characters like Captain America and Magneto whose time in WWII DEFINED a big part of their personality and motivations which isn´t the case of Nick Fury.

[FUBAR007]

The main theme of Nick Fury is that he´s a goverment operative that´s why those kinds of changes work on him but it would not work on characters like Captain America and Magneto whose time in WWII DEFINED a big part of their personality and motivations.

Oh, bullshit. Original Nick Fury was just as defined as by serving in WWII as Cap is. Fury's entire supporting cast and backstory were built on it.

Try again.

[FUBAR007]

There´s a problem, the movie universe already introduced Magneto as a Jewish Holocaust survivor, it´s the introduction of the first X-men movie because despite the fact Brian Singer wasn´t in any way a comic purist, he understood that scene was important not only for Magneto as a character but for the X-men as a group. I don´t see why change the entire origin of a character when all you need is a slight retcon to explain his age.

If the MCU just wanted to do a modern story of the marvel universe, why didn´t they change Captain America origin?, why not make him a Vietnam or Afganistan veteran? it´s because that just isn´t who Captain America is and that´s the same reason why they should not change Magneto´s origin if that´s really in their plans.

Cap would work just fine as a product of the Cold War or the "War on Terror" as long as his personality and beliefs remained the same. They could reinvent Steve as a person of color, and it'd still work.

[Lucyinthesky]

Well, maybe that´s why Marvel brought back old Nick Fury and made him the father to the new Nick Fury. I apologize because I am unfamiliar with Nick Fury history.

Cap would work just fine as a product of the Cold War or the "War on Terror" as long as his personality and beliefs remained the same. They could reinvent Steve as a person of color, and it'd still work.

I agree that could work but in those examples Captain America still would be a soldier from the USA,that would not be the case with Magneto

[Killerbee911]

If the MCU just wanted to do a modern story of the marvel universe, why didn´t they change Captain America origin?, why not make him a Vietnam or Afganistan veteran? it´s because that just isn´t who Captain America is and that´s the same reason why they should not change Magneto´s origin if that´s really in their plans.

In the future that might happen as time and relevance might make the change necessary because of the audience, If they had change Captian America to Vietnam and then reawaken today they wouldn't be an issue It is the same general concept. But Cap story is built already to adjust,all he has to do wake up in the era. They change Iron Man to the middle east conflict, They change Punisher to the middle east conflict. These type of changes happen in if evaluating what moves what be best for 2020s X-men, They get an actor like Denzel or Breaking bad actor available to them and they to decide to change in that direction I would be fine. It wouldn't be my first option to do that but it is an interesting option.

[Lucyinthesky]

Well I agree to disagree.

[Grey]

I think changing it is probably a good idea.

I’m all for keeping as much accurate to the source material as possible but some things need to evolve if we want it to make sense in a modern story.

[PsychoEFrost]

In the future that might happen as time and relevance might make the change necessary because of the audience, If they had change Captian America to Vietnam and then reawaken today they wouldn't be an issue It is the same general concept. But Cap story is built already to adjust,all he has to do wake up in the era. They change Iron Man to the middle east conflict, They change Punisher to the middle east conflict. These type of changes happen in if evaluating what moves what be best for 2020s X-men, They get an actor like Denzel or Breaking bad actor available to them and they to decide to change in that direction I would be fine. It wouldn't be my first option to do that but it is an interesting option.

Cap coming from Vietnam doesn't work because World War 2 was the last time the US could say they were decisively the good guys in a wartime conflict. Korea and Vietnam were both morally ambiguous "police actions", actions that Captain America seemed to heavily disagree with in the first Avengers movie. His origin as a hero at a time where the soldiers were heroes defeating an ultimate evil is central to his character coming into conflict with the current era of morally grey zones of conflict.