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Thread: Steve

  1. #106
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I mean how should the Amazons feel about the other heroes?
    I feel like the Amazons would largely write off any hero who isn't Diana or tied to her (like Donna and Cassie).

    The Amazons tend to write-off Man's World as a lost cause at worst or as troubled and misguided at best. Therefore they probably don't put much stock in the heroes of Man's World either. Especially when Diana so clearly surpasses 99.9% of them, and is arguably better than that last 00.1%.

    Perhaps, after years of hearing about the exploits of Diana's peers, the Amazons might briefly tolerate the presence of Clark or Bruce if they absolutely had to. There was actually a Justice League Action cartoon that went into this; Lex Luthor and Circe team up to steal.....something.....from Themyscria, the Trinity show up to stop them, and Clark and Bruce are treated with barely restrained hostility the whole time (and the Amazons are that nice only because Diana tells them the guys are her sidekicks). Even after they stop the villains, Hippolyta barely manages a semi-polite "thank you. Now get out!" with spears aimed at both Clark and Bruce.

    Themyscria prejudice is, and should be, a thing. That's one of the greatest flaws in their society, baked into the core DNA of the concept. I don't expect or want that to change easily or quickly. And more importantly, writers can use that to explore real world bias via allegory and bring up some social commentary without having to dive into real world issues. The Amazons should be a great society, but not a perfect one, and their distaste for mankind is the biggest and most easily used (from a narrative standpoint) chink in their armor.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  2. #107
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I remember reading something like Bruce, Clark and Steve were the only men Pre-COIE who had honorary citizens status, but I'm not sure how accurate that is since I think it was wikipedia.

    I'd be particularly interested in how the Amazons view Superman since he's pretty much the modern equivalent of Hercules (albeit way more powerful and a much better person than the DCU Hercules).

  3. #108
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I remember reading something like Bruce, Clark and Steve were the only men Pre-COIE who had honorary citizens status, but I'm not sure how accurate that is since I think it was wikipedia.

    I'd be particularly interested in how the Amazons view Superman since he's pretty much the modern equivalent of Hercules (albeit way more powerful and a much better person than the DCU Hercules).
    I think in time they'd come to grudgingly accept that Clark is the real deal, and if he ever interacted with them enough they might even come to like him, just as the rest of the world does. Clark just has that effect on people, yknow? But until he's hung with them a number of times I expect they'd assume his reputation is overblown and tinted with rose-colored glasses, just as Hercules' is/was.

    I can't see the Amazons having any degree of trust in modern Batman though. Dude's too paranoid, too much of an arrogant control freak. I imagine the Amazons would take one look at him and be all "Yup, we're done here. I dont care how great your deductive skills are, you're not welcome on our shores."

    Pre-Crisis Batman, the guy who wasn't an emotionally stunted and broken manchild? Him I think the Amazons could eventually come to respect.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  4. #109
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    Well, i give much more credit to the amazons than you then, because for me the amazons are a kind people able to see past their own point of view and learn from their mistakes.
    Amazon Island is for me a place destined to be reunited with the whole world.
    Amazons with men lovers and their children living among them for eternity (since you are immortal on the island) is a common thing (but no spoken of openly, since it could attract people with less noble intention than love with them) and it start with Diana and Steve, followed by Clark and Lois. And in reverse, amazons living in man's world is also a common thing, but no immortality this time.

    Yeah i'm an idealist, so what...It still make sense.

  5. #110
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    I think there is a troubling tendency, both here on the forum and among many writers at DC, to emphasise that the Amazons must be flawed, that the flaw must be that they are misandrists, and that the only worthwhile way their society can develop is for them to welcome men on their island.

    I think that is a pure sign of patriarchal prejudice and privilege. It's a cheap and obvious flaw to plaster on the Amazon society, and even if there are writers who can write it well, in the hands of inferior writers it leads straight to Azzarello's or Morrison's takes on the Amazons. Much better to leave it to the writers to find some other, less tired, fissure line in Amazon society. Simone managed that, so why not other writers?

    It also leads to the really stupid and simplistic theme that Amazons who like men are good, while Amazons who dislike men are bad.

    Are some Amazons prejudiced against men? Sure. But that doesn't mean they need to be as a society. And as a society they can take the decision that the welcome women from Man's World, and that in order to help those women adjust and train, men aren't welcome on the island. If someone ends up there not of their own volition (like Steve) they get three days as guest (or more if they are injured) and then is assisted back home. Which is entirely in keeping with classical views of hospitality.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  6. #111
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manakel View Post
    Well, i give much more credit to the amazons than you then, because for me the amazons are a kind people able to see past their own point of view and learn from their mistakes.
    Amazon Island is for me a place destined to be reunited with the whole world.
    Amazons with men lovers and their children living among them for eternity (since you are immortal on the island) is a common thing (but no spoken of openly, since it could attract people with less noble intention than love with them) and it start with Diana and Steve, followed by Clark and Lois. And in reverse, amazons living in man's world is also a common thing, but no immortality this time.

    Yeah i'm an idealist, so what...It still make sense.
    I agree that's the final, ultimate endgame. Diana's mission, whether the Amazons realize it or not, is one of reconciliation. But that's an ending I don't see happening until Diana's succeeded in her mission, which means its not something we'll ever see actually happen, outside of stories set in the future.

    But I do want to see the flaws in Amazon society given some spotlight and not swept under the rug, which some posters here seem to prefer. They're an isolationist society (xenophobic as a matter of fact, which doesn't mean they want to kill everyone else as some seem to think the term means) that spent centuries viewing Man's World as something to avoid; a cautionary tale and the source of untold anguish and strife. That's a pretty interesting concept to explore, it's not something that should be moved past without really digging into it.

    The Amazons aren't perfect and they'd be boring as hell if they were, yknow? They can be more advanced than we are both as a culture and a technological power and still be flawed, still have their own biases and bigotry, etc. No one writes about utopia societies because there's nothing to write about there.
    Last edited by Ascended; 10-13-2019 at 10:07 AM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  7. #112
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I think there is a troubling tendency, both here on the forum and among many writers at DC, to emphasise that the Amazons must be flawed, that the flaw must be that they are misandrists, and that the only worthwhile way their society can develop is for them to welcome men on their island.
    If you're including me in that, I've never said the Amazons should welcome men to their island. But look at their history; yes they're a flawed imperfect people and that's not a bad thing. I think the flaws in their society are pretty clear, honestly. I mean, how can anyone *not* see them?

    And having a bias against men isn't the only flaw in their culture. It's just the one that gets brought up the most here. But saying they *dont* have a bias? I can't see that. They don't allow men on the island. That's a bias. Whether they have good reason for that bias or not is immaterial. They spent centuries avoiding the rest of the world. That's a bias (unless the story is that the Amazons *cant* interact, even if they wanted to, which would be something different). Amazon culture has never, at least to my knowledge, been presented as something that is flawless by modern standards and views.

    Just because I recognize that their culture isn't without problems doesn't mean I'm some sort of woman hating, sexist d-bag. And I greatly resent the insinuation. In fact, I think that recognizing their flaws and still considering them to be a great people says far more than wanting them to live up to a perfect image they've never actually had.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #113
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I actually often thought about if the Amazons can't leave the Island at all. That due to something has gone wrong. No Amazon can actually go outside. Which is why they made the magic sphere. That the Amazons did at one point interacted with the outside world in other ways, In terms of men I actually would like it if There are growing moments who say the Amazons shouldn't hurt men. That many of them did have husbands or sons. I think it should be a mix of reasons. That some amazons don't want men because it reminds them of their loss of a son or husband

  9. #114
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    Well if the Amazons can't contact the outside world due to other factors and not their own choice, that changes their actions and motivations. And I do think one or two versions have done something along these lines (I think?). If this were the case in any given continuity then the matter of Amazon sexism changes considerably.

    As for the Amazons having husbands and sons of their own, I believe in most versions they did. The story generally goes along the lines of all the Amazon males being killed off (back in ancient Greece or wherever), the women enslaved, then breaking free, and ending up on the Island by the will of the gods. Often to protect the Doorway, sometimes as recompense for what they've suffered (or both). And in some versions modern/new Amazons come to be in different ways, like Perez's thing with the victims of violence or Azzarello's horrid rape-murder stuff.

    The suffering of the Amazons at the hands of men does provide an excuse for their societal stance on gender, but that's not an excuse for sexism. It's like if someone got mugged by a black guy and then said all black people are bad. They're not, you just got mugged by one dude who happened to be black. Likewise, the Amazons aren't "allowed" to discriminate against men and have that be okay. They suffered greatly and that shouldn't be undervalued; as excuses go they've got a really good one, but there's never a justification for discriminating against any group. And that, I think, is one of the big morals you can pull here, one of the big developments you can work on across the continuity to great effect. Because Amazon sexism is so sympathetic (who would hold it against them, given what they've been through?), overcoming that bias as a culture and looking beyond the excuses for bigotry is, I think, a very viable story to tell. Readers get to watch the Amazons start out with very firm ideas, begin to examine them closer, and then grow and change for the better, becoming more accepting of people's differences.

    Since we're on the topic, I wonder how the Amazons would handle trans and non-binary people?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  10. #115
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Readers get to watch the Amazons start out with very firm ideas, begin to examine them closer, and then grow and change for the better, becoming more accepting of people's differences.
    My fear on that is that it only works if Man's World also is presented as highly flawed, learns lesson, etc. And that's not very likely, since it's real-world-based. So we end up with crap-ton more "teaching" of the Amazons than of the outside world. I agree their sexism is an absolute problem, but I'm highly annoyed with all the "other" civilizations being presented as highly-flawed and in need of "fixing" by outside influence, while our world just gets to impart wisdom or be accepted in its flaws or at least mostly be fixed by its own people. Krypton went form a mostly good civilization to a cold, unfeeling one with xenophobic or species superiority issues (when we have surviving remnants), Thanagar became conquerors long ago (bronze age?), Atlantis has become increasing racist, xenophobic, and unworthy of self-rule, and even Rann got turned fascist at some point. All the "other" civilizations being inherently and overtly inferior to modern western civilization is extremely annoying to me and I'm sick of it. Because it actually is built-in to a degree in WW (despite being presented as better, I cannot agree with sexism-as-correct presentation), I could accept it better with the Amazons than all the others, if it was the only one (despite some potential issues of sexism itself, because it presents a society of women must be inferior, morally). Unfortunately, as it is, it's just a pile "civilizations inferior to our own."
    Last edited by Tzigone; 10-13-2019 at 12:36 PM.

  11. #116
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I think we should see that other Amazons do disagree with stopping men from coming on the Island. Also what if it's something the Amazons did and something they can't truly control? For example, doom gate leaves it's own magic behind? They learn to use this magic for other purposes. I don't think the Amazons should be all seen has sexist. I mean we should see human men aren't allowed but they should have other male creatures on the Island.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 10-13-2019 at 12:46 PM.

  12. #117
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    My fear on that is that it only works if Man's World also is presented as highly flawed, learns lesson, etc. And that's not very likely, since it's real-world-based.
    Im right there with you when it comes to concerns about the Amazons looking like they're the only ones with something to learn. And you're right about the inherent limitations of what Man's World is allowed to learn because it has to (mostly) reflect the real world. I wish DC would let the setting evolve, so we could get past this sort of issue. We've seen plenty of settings that barely resemble the real world do just fine, after all, and I see little reason why the DCU can't do the same. But anyway.

    I do think it can be done. If you consider what Rucka was doing with Diana's writing, I think that shows an avenue you can follow. She wrote a book, encouraging Amazon philosophy, and people reacted in different ways. Some took it to heart, some didn't. Rucka played with that dynamic for a while, and since this sort of change would happen slowly in the real world and DC time moves even slower, you've got tons of time to work with. You can show individuals learning some Amazon lessons, just as some Amazons learn lessons from us, so on the page it remains a balanced exchange. You can have Diana save a large town and have most/all of those residents embrace her and her philosophy, but it's still just one town in the larger world. So you can show Diana's message slowly spreading without *actually* changing the entire setting. It's a knife's edge to balance on, because you can't just have the Amazons being the ones who learn and change, but I think it can be done without changing the entire DCU and I dont think it would even require a top-end talent to do it.

    Actually, in a lot of ways this is no different than the changes Superman wants to bring about, and how writers have handled that. We see that Clark does make a difference in the world, people change their ways after he's influenced them. But its a big world with a lot of people, sometimes people even take the wrong lessons from him (like those cults that treat him like a god) so even though change can be seen happening, it's not on the worldwide level he wants.....but we have clear indicators that the message is getting out and change *is* being made.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #118
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I often wondered what if the Amazons don't have sexist has we think? That another group of Amazons left to a nearby Island to have men in their lives? They just can't come to the main Island

  14. #119
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I think we should see that other Amazons do disagree with stopping men from coming on the Island. Also what if it's something the Amazons did and something they can't truly control? For example, doom gate leaves it's own magic behind? They learn to use this magic for other purposes. I don't think the Amazons should be all seen has sexist. I mean we should see human men aren't allowed but they should have other male creatures on the Island.
    Im sure there are Amazons who love men and dislike the fact that none are allowed on the Island. I don't believe they're all man haters at all, most likely fall somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. Individual opinion is going to vary, just as it does in any population. But the overall culture is what it is, and there's a degree of sexism there that I find rather fascinating and worth exploring. I think, especially right now, there's a message in Diana's mythos that is terribly important, and I dont think that can be truly and honestly delved into by covering up the parts of her story that make us uncomfortable.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  15. #120
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Which is why I love Steve being in there. I mean Still gives a way for Amazons who think it's time for the Amazons to return can use this.

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