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Thread: Steve

  1. #91
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I'm curious how would you write Steve being the first male to actually be invited to the island? That sure Diana is dating Tom but somehow Steve is the only guy who is constantly invited on the island.
    I'd prefer that Steve isn't invited to Themyscira. He might end up there now and again, but it's something that should be used very sparingly and in extreme situations, and preferably when most of the Amazons weren't around (see how Rucka used him on not-Themyscira in Rebirth, or Simone with Tom Tresser in her run).

    There are two reasons for that. The first is that I want to maintain the idea of Themyscira as a safe space for women. And part of being a "good ally" (which modern Steve is supposed to be) of a marginalised group (which women are) is to respect those. The second is a narrative issue. If part of Steve's arc is to become "naturalised" to Themyscira, then we suddenly shape the narrative arc of the Amazons so it follows Steve's arc. And the only character arc I'm ready to place on a level where it is allowed to shape Themyscira is Diana's.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #92
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    True. I’m just saying Steve should be able to be the first man, who the Amazons truth in a long time.

  3. #93
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    True. What about Steve's first tasks be. Maybe wanting to see his negating skills first hand. Due to hearing on many of the countries can go to war on the littlest of thing they test him of that. One thing borrowing from Orana. They want to see him does he value his loyalties or wins. In situations where it seems hard to win. I know many people disagree but when the Amazons accept him shouldn't he learn a few skills? They learn from him and he learns from them? Not saying everything but a few things
    I have no idea what would be truly fitting for "tasks." We're talking about a society of people who cut themselves off from the outside world, had every reason to not want to interact with it again, and send an ambassador out into Man's World usually because they have no other choice. It's been damn rare that the Amazons have ever really wanted to deal with the rest of the world, and usually have to be forced into it by need and circumstance.

    So the stuff that Steve would have to do to earn the right to not only set foot on the Island but be considered one of them? Steve, the male soldier who is basically the embodiment of everything the Amazons wanted to leave behind. It would have to be beyond Herculean. Not just acts of bravery and skill of arms but acts of heart and knowledge and instinct and....I don't even know.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I'd prefer that Steve isn't invited to Themyscira. He might end up there now and again, but it's something that should be used very sparingly and in extreme situations, and preferably when most of the Amazons weren't around (see how Rucka used him on not-Themyscira in Rebirth, or Simone with Tom Tresser in her run).

    There are two reasons for that. The first is that I want to maintain the idea of Themyscira as a safe space for women. And part of being a "good ally" (which modern Steve is supposed to be) of a marginalised group (which women are) is to respect those. The second is a narrative issue. If part of Steve's arc is to become "naturalised" to Themyscira, then we suddenly shape the narrative arc of the Amazons so it follows Steve's arc. And the only character arc I'm ready to place on a level where it is allowed to shape Themyscira is Diana's.
    Well I think the point was to have the Amazons actually invite him, not for him to force himself into their world. I agree with what you're saying but I don't think that was the intent of anyone posting on this. And I agree that the Amazons shouldn't mirror Steve's journey. That's just total BS. Though I do gotta say, using Steve's personal dynamic with the Island to represent Diana's larger, overall mission doesn't seem like the worst idea. If the Island isn't mirroring him, if he's the one mirroring the Island, it might work. I've said before in this thread I'm not in favor of Steve going this route, but I can see a kind of narrative sense in it.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  4. #94
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well I think the point was to have the Amazons actually invite him, not for him to force himself into their world. I agree with what you're saying but I don't think that was the intent of anyone posting on this. And I agree that the Amazons shouldn't mirror Steve's journey. That's just total BS. Though I do gotta say, using Steve's personal dynamic with the Island to represent Diana's larger, overall mission doesn't seem like the worst idea. If the Island isn't mirroring him, if he's the one mirroring the Island, it might work. I've said before in this thread I'm not in favor of Steve going this route, but I can see a kind of narrative sense in it.
    I might have phrased myself too tersely above. Themyscira, like all popular fictional places, is both situated in-story and as a general idea. I don't expect Steve Trevor to ever force himself onto Themyscira, but I think there is a value in preserving the idea of Themyscira as a place for women only. And there is also a strength to be found if Steve Trevor would recognise and say that Themyscira is for women only. It's not his place to be.

    And yes, if the story arc was Themyscira-centered, it might work. But given the way narratives tend to become centered on the men (either in writing or reading), I'm afraid that such a storyline might hurt the idea of Themyscira as a safe space for women, or become too tied to Steve proving himself "worthy". "Now they admit men, so Themyscira is now a better place."

    Meanwhile, the monks of Athos has lived on their peninsula without women for over a thousand years, with no push for admitting women.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #95
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    How is allowing Steve on the Island taken away safe for women away? If anything the fact the Amazons truth him show women he is safe. I mean what if the force shield on the island is actually a way to block away terrible people ?

  6. #96
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I might have phrased myself too tersely above. Themyscira, like all popular fictional places, is both situated in-story and as a general idea. I don't expect Steve Trevor to ever force himself onto Themyscira, but I think there is a value in preserving the idea of Themyscira as a place for women only. And there is also a strength to be found if Steve Trevor would recognise and say that Themyscira is for women only. It's not his place to be.

    And yes, if the story arc was Themyscira-centered, it might work. But given the way narratives tend to become centered on the men (either in writing or reading), I'm afraid that such a storyline might hurt the idea of Themyscira as a safe space for women, or become too tied to Steve proving himself "worthy". "Now they admit men, so Themyscira is now a better place."

    Meanwhile, the monks of Athos has lived on their peninsula without women for over a thousand years, with no push for admitting women.
    I think we're in agreement here. I mean, there *are* some viable options for Steve "going native" and all....but I'm not sure if it's a direction that *should* be taken. I honestly don't trust DC enough to do it properly, if nothing else. I also think Steve offers more as a love interest firmly entrenched in Man's World; his union with Diana has more resonance, I think, when he and Diana are from different worlds and learn to co-exist with their differences, rather than have one of them adapt completely to the other's culture.

    But Steve becoming the first man to be welcomed to the Island.....there *is* potential there. Props to Ami for that. I just don't know if it's the right path, yknow?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  7. #97
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    How about this. It’s for very special occasions. It’s not like he can just go to the island. The only appears if a Amazon invites him. So maybe life Hippolyta’a birthday or Diana’s. Or a holiday the Amazons celebrate

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    How about this. It’s for very special occasions. It’s not like he can just go to the island. The only appears if a Amazon invites him. So maybe life Hippolyta’a birthday or Diana’s. Or a holiday the Amazons celebrate
    I guess I might be fine with that? Like others have pointed out before, even though I'm a huge fan of Diana/Steve, I really dislike the idea of Steve, or any other man, becoming a "naturalized citizen" or partaking in any Amazon activities as an actual member of that society. It just reeks of Special Snowflake-ism, like "look at this man, he's the only man accepted among a race of warrior women!", or at worst, like a, "but what about the men?" cry.

  9. #99
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I get that. I'm just saying instead of either not truthing him or thinking of him negatively they are okay with him and look at him better light. That the Amazons are not isolationist has much. That if Steve can go and get Help. Or if Diana is in trouble and the JL or Diana's other supporting cast can't help her Steve can go to the Amazons. I'm not trying to give him special only rights. I'm just saying. He isn't always going to be invited. Maybe once or twice. But not often. For example, Steve is invited to celebrate the day he crashed landed on the Island

  10. #100
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    I kinda see Steve as the bridge to Patriarch's World though, after centuries of the Amazon's seclusion. I kinda like that he's one of the best people the outside world has to offer them and that challenges some of the Themyscirans' past experience and memories with the outside world... which can still be true (based on our reality), but he's something new, dare I say exceptional, compared to other men and women they encounter in terms of bringing Amazon philosophy and equality and equity to Patriarch's World.

  11. #101
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean how should the Amazons feel about the other heroes? I mean I'm just saying since Steve is the first male they have seen. I feel they would test the first male they see before having other men go to the Island.

  12. #102
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    I very well see Steve (and Etta) returning to Themyscira, either for protecting it alongside Diana against a threat (Cheetah and Grail for exemple) or just because Diana want him to be properly introduced to her mother and sisters as her boyfriend (fiancee ?) and not just like some guy who crashed on the island and take her away (it was not about him but i feel some of the amazons can feel that way).
    Amazons having doubt about him would be natural considering their history, and Hyppolita too, but not hostile like on the fake island in Rucka's run. After all, every mother want their child to be happy.

  13. #103
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    One thing I often thought about is Hippolyta thinking about Steve and Diana being married. That maybe she wants to test Steve. I mean just like any mother she wants to make sure Steve is the right person

  14. #104
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    I'm not too fond of a test. He is not an amazon after all so they can't test him with their own critera. But a good talk as mother to suitor...

  15. #105
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I don’t want all the Amazons just Hippolyta. She should know Steve enough to not make it easy but still accepts him. I mean should it be bad for him to learn any type of Amazonian skills? Steve is still the first puzzle for the amazons to accept him. I'm not saying everything and all. Just one thing

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