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  1. #1
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Default Characaters that were taken more seriously, once up on a time.

    There are a number of characters that were either introduced as or later achieved a certain amount of competence/respect then later seemed to be downgraded (either in respect granted by peers or by readers). Sometimes downgrades stuck, sometimes they didn't.

    Elongated Man is one for me. He was introduced as a competent hero. Later he was highlighted as a very good detective. Yes, he was an attention-seeker - no disputing. But he was still intelligent and capable. Had a wife who loved him. Later the attention-seeking got amped up desperate and pathetic and he was sometimes an idiotic buffoon whose wife treated him with disdain. I really like his silver age self, and was very disappointed with how he was treated later. That's even excluding Formerly Known as the Justice League and the JLA: Classifieds with him, which I disliked very much for pretty much everyone appearing that I actually knew.

    Ted Kord is another. In his solo series in the 1980s, he was a very smart, capable guy. More than a shade immature in some respects, but few would think him incompetent or unintelligent, even if he's a rookie learning the ropes. That changed. Not necessarily consistently, as he still shined sometimes, but definitely sometimes he was treated like a very dim bulb. And I think made more immature (but maybe that's just him and Booster hanging out together and bringing out the inner frat boys in one another).

    Dick Grayson is a third for me. May be odd to list someone so prominent, but I think he used be more intelligent, more mature, more capable, and more widely respected by his fellow heroes than he's often shown as in recent times. Again, it's not all the time, but it's definitely sometimes.

  2. #2
    Incredible Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Yeah dick grayson is one for sure. How many character's can sell a 60+ issue solo and lead a team book at the same time in today's market? But look how the character and his book is treated.

  3. #3
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Jason Todd. Now he's the joke of most Batfamily scenes.

  4. #4
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Jason Todd. Now he's the joke of most Batfamily scenes.
    Would his "taken seriously" era be when he was shortly back from the dead? Because he was deeply disrespected and talked of like a failure when dead. I haven't read the era right after he reappeared. Or much of the current stuff. Just old stuff, where he was treated horribly after they decided to kill him off.

  5. #5
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Would his "taken seriously" era be when he was shortly back from the dead? Because he was deeply disrespected and talked of like a failure when dead. I haven't read the era right after he reappeared. Or much of the current stuff. Just old stuff, where he was treated horribly after they decided to kill him off.
    Under Winnick he was written as a competent threat, Morrison too (although his concept of Jason wasn't very good, but he at least considered a threat). Outside of that he is joke in the batfamily reunions.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  6. #6
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Under Winnick he was written as a competent threat, Morrison too (although his concept of Jason wasn't very good, but he at least considered a threat). Outside of that he is joke in the batfamily reunions.
    In his own solo's he's also somewhat humorous but a serious combatant, but, again, he's the butt of jokes in every Batfamily situation.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Ted Kord is another. In his solo series in the 1980s, he was a very smart, capable guy. More than a shade immature in some respects, but few would think him incompetent or unintelligent, even if he's a rookie learning the ropes. That changed. Not necessarily consistently, as he still shined sometimes, but definitely sometimes he was treated like a very dim bulb. And I think made more immature (but maybe that's just him and Booster hanging out together and bringing out the inner frat boys in one another).
    I think you can extend that to a large part of the JLI members. A lot of thm were turned into Jokes durin that era but some of the might have recovered from that.

    I would say Beast Boy, he was never the most serious character, but now he is often mostly comic relief and the his tragic backgroung is mostly ignored.

    Barbara Gordon used alos to more competent thant in in the Burnside Era, but she got at least somewhat better recently (but still not treally back to the pre flashpoint level as oracle).

  8. #8
    Incredible Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Glad someone else already said it. Beast Boy hasn't been respectable in the comics since before 2011. As a fan, it's kinda heartbreak how the YJ cartoon and animated TT movies (especially Judas Contract. God, I LOVED that one) are the only places I can go to for a Gar who can be more than just the team's comic relief/punching bag.

    Really, the Titans as a whole should be mentioned in this thread. It's REALLY sad, seeing where they are now. Even sadder when you realize the current Teen Titans run is the best one we've had in years and it's only okay at best.
    Last edited by Blue22; 08-12-2019 at 03:56 AM.

  9. #9
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    Some Legionnaires come to mind - Matter-Eater Lad and Dream Girl. Due to his "unique" power, writers started scripting Tenzil as comic relief while Nura became the team flirt.

  10. #10
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Would his "taken seriously" era be when he was shortly back from the dead? Because he was deeply disrespected and talked of like a failure when dead. I haven't read the era right after he reappeared. Or much of the current stuff. Just old stuff, where he was treated horribly after they decided to kill him off.
    Jason had a good portrayal in Batman: Under the Red Hood - and that's pretty much it for the rest of the post-crisis era.
    Afterwards it was victim-blaming again and turning Jason into a psychopath/bloodthirsty villain, clearly traumatized and in desperate need of some help from others (because some traumata you can't overcome all by yourself) - but he never got any.

    Because if I have learned anything from superhero comics: If you have mental problems, then you are a villain and it's okay to bring you to justice like any other bad person. And: If you can't overcome your problems by yourself, then you are the only one to blame.

    There is that horrible quote from Dick in "Battle for the cowl": "If only Jason could have reached out to us. Any one of us. He could have saved himself. But you know what? Some people don't want to be saved. Because saving means changing. And changing is always harder then staying the same. It takes courage to face yourself in the mirror and look beyond the reflection. To find the you that you should have been. The you who got derailed by cruel childhood events. Events that took your life's natural trajectory and twisted it. Changing it into something unimaginable... or even incredible...... giving you the courage to embrace your birthright, you destiny, and finally realize... that you ARE BATMAN."
    Last edited by Sergard; 08-12-2019 at 09:58 AM.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Hal Jordan. It took one bad movie, one actor making fun of it and the movie studio that owns the character doubling down on the jokes and here we are almost a decade later where the character can't even make it on the cover of a JL animated movie that he's featured in.
    Last edited by Johnny; 08-12-2019 at 10:15 AM.

  12. #12
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Hal Jordan. It took one bad movie, one actor making fun of it and the movie studio that owns the character doubling down on the jokes and here we are almost a decade later where the character can't even make it on the cover of a JL animated movie that he's featured in.
    uhmmm, while I can't deny Hal took some lumps in terms of perception, I can't say I agree that he's "not taken seriously" considering he continues to be the company's go-to Lantern with the most appearances in or out of the comics, the most development, the most pivotal roles in major storylines and it usually boils down to him saving the universe in most Green Lantern stories or GL-centric stories. Again, that's not to say Hal hasn't taken his lumps (some more seriously than others) but you literally picked the Lantern with the most clout and who has been taken the most seriously out of all of them; if Hal Jordan isn't taken seriously then every other Lantern and the entirety of the Lantern mythos is less than a joke comparatively.

    Sure, maybe he won't headline a movie anytime soon but we all know he's going to appear front and center again on whatever they do with the Green Lantern (in film, TV, or comics) no matter what.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 08-12-2019 at 10:41 AM.
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  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Crazy Quilt
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

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  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    uhmmm, while I can't deny Hal took some lumps in terms of perception, I can't say I agree that he's "not taken seriously" considering he continues to be the company's go-to Lantern with the most appearances in or out of the comics, the most development, the most pivotal roles in major storylines and it usually boils down to him saving the universe in most Green Lantern stories or GL-centric stories. Again, that's not to say Hal hasn't taken his lumps (some more seriously than others) but you literally picked the Lantern with the most clout and who has been taken the most seriously out of all of them; if Hal Jordan isn't taken seriously then every other Lantern and the entirety of the Lantern mythos is less than a joke comparatively.
    That doesn't seem to be the case to me. Hal is the only Green Lantern who is being treated like this, you don't see this type of "laughing stock" treatment being applied to any of the rest. They're basically giving him the former Aquaman treatment. If it took Aquaman nearly half a century to be dug out of this hole, how long do you think it would take Hal when they're shoving him right back into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Sure, maybe he won't headline a movie anytime soon but we all know he's going to appear front and center again on whatever they do with the Green Lantern (in film, TV, or comics) no matter what.
    I think you probably give WB/DC far too much credit. Hal is basically seen as a redundant character who is not "needed" in any type of outside media adaptation. He's easily replaceable. That's why they find it so easy to mock him or exclude him from promotional materials whenever they do feature him in something, because that movie hurt him, not the overall GL franchise or the other Lantern characters.
    Last edited by Johnny; 08-12-2019 at 11:02 AM.

  15. #15
    Spectacular Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I think you probably give WB/DC far too much credit. Hal is basically seen as a redundant character who is not "needed" in any type of outside media adaptation. He's easily replaceable.
    Yes, but the strategy now is - for Justice League content, use whichever GL makes sense. For something JLU-ish they use John. For Super Hero Girls they use Jessica, and otherwise they still use Hal.

    In team situations, they may make fun of characters to generate interpersonal dynamics, humor. Focusing on GL for that was Geoff Johns' idea - it's his blueprint they're following.

    When GL is a primary character? DC knows Hal is the central character to the mythology. That's why right they're publishing a high-profile book featuring Hal by Grant Morrison. Hal is the quarterback of the GL property.

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