Superman & Wonder Woman

[Vanguard-01]

NO!

Uuuugh!

One of THE worst characterizations of Wonder Woman EVER!

Diana would NEVER terrorize a teenaged girl just to help Bruce win an argument. And then she has the gall to get mad at HIM for being mad AT HER for KIDNAPPING HIS COUSIN?

[Anthonior]

I liked how she looks and how she is more about "cut the crap" approach, Kal was okay to be trusty she is his cousin, bruce was paranoid from from the start so Diana was more of a matter at hand and what it has to be done in a secluded area as training, learning and practice but still Diana cared for Kara and Kal.

[Vanguard-01]

I liked how she looks and how she is more about "cut the crap" approach, Kal was okay to be trusty she is his cousin, bruce was paranoid from from the start so Diana was more of a matter at hand and what it has to be done in a secluded area as training, learning and practice but still Diana cared for Kara and Kal.

She cared for them, but she clearly didn't respect them.

She didn't trust Clark's judgement, or she wouldn't have participated. She didn't trust Kara, or she wouldn't have thought she needed to kidnap her.

And then when Clark expressed his anger about her betrayal, she gets mad at him. She was all "Cut the crap" about him being (rightly) upset with her. She was dismissive and didn't even TRY to acknowledge his feelings on the matter.

Jeff Loeb should never be allowed to write Diana. Ever.

[Anthonior]

She cared for them, but she clearly didn't respect them.

She didn't trust Clark's judgement, or she wouldn't have participated. She didn't trust Kara, or she wouldn't have thought she needed to kidnap her.

And then when Clark expressed his anger about her betrayal, she gets mad at him. She was all "Cut the crap" about him being (rightly) upset with her. She was dismissive and didn't even TRY to acknowledge his feelings on the matter.

Jeff Loeb should never be allowed to write Diana. Ever.

I suppose it's one more way to see it because I see it differently, though I think I can agree on that perspective as well I just keep liking Diana & Kal interactions be that good times or bad or different approaches, and most of all, I just know a few things from before the reboot so I guess I'll go along about your opinion of Loeb.

[Punisher007]

My problem with it is that she and Batman thought that the best approach would be to just kidnap Kara. That's just really stupid on their parts. Clark is their friend. If they would have gone to him and said "listen, Kara is having trouble controlling herself and she could become a threat to innocent people without even realizing it. We want to train her to learn control, but we want you to be involved as well," then I'm sure that the three of them could have worked out a solution that they all could live with. But instead, Bruce and Diana picked the worst possible option to run with.

[hellacre]

My problem with it is that she and Batman thought that the best approach would be to just kidnap Kara. That's just really stupid on their parts. Clark is their friend. If they would have gone to him and said "listen, Kara is having trouble controlling herself and she could become a threat to innocent people without even realizing it. We want to train her to learn control, but we want you to be involved as well," then I'm sure that the three of them could have worked out a solution that they all could live with. But instead, Bruce and Diana picked the worst possible option to run with.

Yeah, I remember being annoyed at that. Then on top of it, she had the nerve to act all annoyed with him when she goes on about losing Amazons for "that girl". I was like huh, Diana you are being arrogant and maybe you wouldn't have lost sisters if you had not butt your nose in. It's nice seeing Clark and Diana have moments...good or bad but I did not quite like that. It did not feel how close Clark and Diana were back then, she'd collude with Bruce behind Clark's back because Kara is a kid, that she might talk to Clark first and if he was stubborn then I could see her have some frank words with him.

[hellacre]

She cared for them, but she clearly didn't respect them.

She didn't trust Clark's judgement, or she wouldn't have participated. She didn't trust Kara, or she wouldn't have thought she needed to kidnap her.

And then when Clark expressed his anger about her betrayal, she gets mad at him. She was all "Cut the crap" about him being (rightly) upset with her. She was dismissive and didn't even TRY to acknowledge his feelings on the matter.

Jeff Loeb should never be allowed to write Diana. Ever.

Loeb did a good Diana in Our Worlds At War imo. She was the voice of reason and Clark's support as well as being a fierce warrior. I think not all writers are perfect. Some hit or miss, even the best of them. I like some of Geoff's Diana and then I am iffy about other moments. And the same can be applied to Gail Simone or even Rucka. I mean Rucka did a great run for Diana but there were some stuff like his handling of the Clark and Diana relationship that felt off . It felt like it wanted to do destroy their friendship based on Clark suddenly after years of knowing her and knowing she can use lethal force, have him acting like a holier than thou hypocrite. The aftermath of Sacrifice was handled so poorly. DC never showed them talk about the situation like two mature adults and suddenly they were back as "friends" with no real explanation. It's why I want to see them have those talks in this canon. Then let's not talk about Blackest Night Wonder Woman. I am rolling my eyes as I think about how useless Diana was in that whole event and all she was really used for was once again to pimp Bats. Don't want to derail about that story but there are some motivations on Diana's behalf ( and we are not talking about Elseworlds or AU...because the characters are usually shaped by different factors) that will hopefully never change. ie She would respect her friends choices and not go behind their back and even if she disagreed with them, she would not be afraid to speak honestly. That's Batman's MO to be paranoid. Not hers.

[Punisher007]

Loeb did a good Diana in Our Worlds At War imo. She was the voice of reason and Clark's support as well as being a fierce warrior. I think not all writers are perfect. Some hit or miss, even the best of them. I like some of Geoff's Diana and then I am iffy about other moments. And the same can be applied to Gail Simone or even Rucka. I mean Rucka did a great run for Diana but there were some stuff like his handling of the Clark and Diana relationship that felt off . It felt like it wanted to do destroy their friendship based on Clark suddenly after years of knowing her and knowing she can use lethal force, have him acting like a holier than thou hypocrite. The aftermath of Sacrifice was handled so poorly. DC never showed them talk about the situation like two mature adults and suddenly they were back as "friends" with no real explanation. It's why I want to see them have those talks in this canon. Then let's not talk about Blackest Night Wonder Woman. I am rolling my eyes as I think about how useless Diana was in that whole event and all she was really used for was once again to pimp Bats. Don't want to derail about that story but there are some motivations on Diana's behalf ( and we are not talking about Elseworlds or AU...because the characters are usually shaped by different factors) that will hopefully never change. ie She would respect her friends choices and not go behind their back and even if she disagreed with them, she would not be afraid to speak honestly. That's Batman's MO to be paranoid. Not hers.

Are you referring to WW killing Maxwell Lord? I'm pretty sure that the whole "Superman and Batman are angry at her" plot-line was editorial mandated to set up the whole One Year Later thing.

[hellacre]

Are you referring to WW killing Maxwell Lord? I'm pretty sure that the whole "Superman and Batman are angry at her" plot-line was editorial mandated to set up the whole One Year Later thing.

No I don't think Sacrifice itself was. Greg Rucka had that as a story and he had intentions for Diana's actions to have repercussions. I read Dan Didio say they almost did not go for Diana killing Lord but the story telling was strong so they went for it. What I agree was mandated was One Year Later. Rucka was not a fan of Diana losing her powers to be more human etc. But there was a rumor he wanted to hook Diana up with Batman but this was turned down so his randomly having her pine for Batman in Blackest Night was probably his way of fulfilling what he wanted.

After Sacrifice it was rare to see Diana and Clark be as close as they were. Dwayne Mcduffie showcased some nice moment between them as did Judd Winnick when Dick took up the Batman mantle. Most WW or SM writers at that time ignored significant interactions between them. Even when Clark's father died, a big moment in comics, Diana was not at the funeral. Which struck me as weird because Bruce showed up. It was thanks to Dwayne Mcduffie who at least made a mention of Clark losing his father in JL. In the past many Superman and Wonder Woman writers always showcased their friendship with a little appearance now and again or guest appearance. It got worse when DC went into Grounded and Oddessy. That verse ended with Diana barely knowing Clark. Weird really considering that continuity had them so close. I guess it was just a sign how mediocre the writing was then and maybe DC did not care because they knew they were going into Flashpoint to reboot.

[Charmed]

I just hope that when they eventually part ways as a couple (even though I don't want them to), that they remain close friends. I'd hate to see them hate each other if and when there's a fallout. I could stomach them being a little awkward around each other after the fact, but seeing them actively avoid and despise each other (though I doubt they'd take it THAT far) would be awful.

[hellacre]

I just hope that when they eventually part ways as a couple (even though I don't want them to), that they remain close friends. I'd hate to see them hate each other if and when there's a fallout. I could stomach them being a little awkward around each other after the fact, but seeing them actively avoid and despise each other (though I doubt they'd take it THAT far) would be awful.

I know, right?

This leads to the speculation that some fans have been bandying around that when or if they break up things will not end well and they want to see them as enemies etc. First of all , they are adults and it never struck me they would be so silly. Clark has had relationships in the past and can be friends with old girlfriends. Lana. Second, Diana ended a relationship with Steve and she's been very mature about it. It's Steve who can't handle it based on how they wrote him.

I can't fathom why some people might think they would be enemies or they can't work together after. That is just not in character.

[Charmed]

I know, right?

This leads to the speculation that some fans have been bandying around that when or if they break up things will not end well and they want to see them as enemies etc. First of all , they are adults and it never struck me they would be so silly. Clark has had relationships in the past and can be friends with old girlfriends. Lana. Second, Diana ended a relationship with Steve and she's been very mature about it. It's Steve who can't handle it based on how they wrote him.

I can't fathom why some people might think they would be enemies or they can't work together after. That is just not in character.

Exactly!

But I feel it in my gut that DC is going to make them act like angry teens after the break up. Clark will hate Diana because blah blah blah and Diana will hate Clark for blah blah blah. They'll fight (it'll probably turn into some sort of physical fight too). They'll argue on certain methods during League missions, even though they've always shown to be willing to show each other respect for their individual ways of dealing with things. It'll just be the usual post break up drama that I hope and pray won't happen.

But look on the bright side. Drama like that is good for sales. :rolleyes:

[hellacre]

Exactly!

But I feel it in my gut that DC is going to make them act like angry teens after the break up. Clark will hate Diana because blah blah blah and Diana will hate Clark for blah blah blah. They'll fight (it'll probably turn into some sort of physical fight too). They'll argue on certain methods during League missions, even though they've always shown to be willing to show each other respect for their individual ways of dealing with things. It'll just be the usual post break up drama that I hope and pray won't happen.

But look on the bright side. Drama like that is good for sales. :rolleyes:

Uggh I hope not. Like you say I would accept a bit of awkwardness and maybe even a little avoidance but not crappy I hate you nonsense. Also might depend what they break up for. If they do. Will it be something that forces them apart? They might not want to? But it is for the greater good? That would make things very awkward. But I think Charles Soule so far has avoided the cliches and if he writes them, I have faith he'll not do teeny soap opera drama.

[Charmed]

Uggh I hope not. Like you say I would accept a bit of awkwardness and maybe even a little avoidance but not crappy I hate you nonsense. Also might depend what they break up for. If they do. Will it be something that forces them apart? They might not want to? But it is for the greater good? That would make things very awkward. But I think Charles Soule so far has avoided the cliches and if he writes them, I have faith he'll not do teeny soap opera drama.

If they break up on those terms, it'd be fine. (My problem really isn't with them breaking up, it's what I feel is going to happen after.) I just hope they don't split because X cheated on Y with Z.

Soule has done great. If he's writing it, all is fine. In Soule we trust.

[Gaelforce]

Moved this to a new thread to avoid drifting in the 'Appreciation' thread