How should X-Men reflect the bigotry of modern times?

[The Overlord]

X-Men has always had a message against bigotry and in modern times I think we have seen a re-emergence of white supremacy and people becoming more aware of structural racism. How should the X-Men reflect this modern resurgence of bigotry?

[JKtheMac]

I think we need to remember there was never a direct parallel with current affairs. The mutant metaphor has always been loosely applied and general. Yes it is entirely possible for a writer to tackle an individual prejudice in a story though analogy, but there is a potential to overburden the format if they try and reflect everything all at once.

Also, the audience has become more global, so Marvel have to make some choices, or at least individual writers do. Do they heavily focus in on US concerns or do they keep things broad and relevant to an international audience.

So maybe a more interesting way of asking the question is which current issues are most suitable for an X-Men analogy.

I imagine Hickman will focus on big picture issues like how easily we are manipulated by social media and the new propaganda. These are better done with indirect analogy otherwise readers will just switch off. Not many of us want to read about how Cambridge Analytica screwed over mutants. It is also quite hard to do this kind of thing. Tom Taylor was clearly interested in such issues in Red but the analogy was perhaps unfocused and not very pointed.

Issues like reproductive rights are so hot topic they can divide audiences, but they are clearly important in the US at the moment. To a European reader they can seem strange and mostly irrelevant, despite them actually being real issues under the surface of our society’s globally.

Issues in the LGBTQIAPK spectrum are all relevant to the mutant analogy, but some of them need an entire context that Marvel don’t seem eager to provide. Even tackling the issues at the left of the acronym seem difficult. Just ask Sina Grace how easy it is to write a book with a guy dating another guy. The amount of negative press that received from long time X-Men fans on otherwise mainstream podcasts and review pages was frankly embarrassing. The unconscious and non-reflective bias was palpable. How easy would it really be to seriously address trans issues or asexual issues if we still think Northstar is as far as comics can go?

[TOTALITY]

Issues in the LGBTQIAPK spectrum are all relevant to the mutant analogy, but some of them need an entire context that Marvel don’t seem eager to provide. Even tackling the issues at the left of the acronym seem difficult. Just ask Sina Grace how easy it is to write a book with a guy dating another guy. The amount of negative press that received from long time X-Men fans on otherwise mainstream podcasts and review pages was frankly embarrassing. The unconscious and non-reflective bias was palpable. How easy would it really be to seriously address trans issues or asexual issues if we still think Northstar is as far as comics can go?

I hope Hickman has an eye on those things because I feel like he could get just about anything in right now if he wanted to. Like he said a SDCC, very few people tell him ‘no’ anymore. While nothing boundary-pushing, Mystique and Destiny’s relationship felt present and so matter-of-fact in HOX2. I guess Claremont’s intentions for them are such established history at this point that it may as well have always been overt on the page (not that it was ever super subtle.) Lots of similarly untapped potential in plenty of other characters that I know some writers and editors would pass by executive order on their first day in office, yet somehow straight people keep holding the keys to the X-Men, forever the most subtext-laden Marvel franchise but never the representation standard bearer it could be. I would settle for a straight person in charge who at least tries to make some strides in that area (especially if they have the clout to make things happen), maybe if they had some queer x-fans in their brain trust...

[Killerbee911]

How easy would it really be to seriously address trans issues or asexual issues if we still think Northstar is as far as comics can go?

Is that feature or is that the comic? The X-men is a superhero comic how much responsibility should it have in areas like this? Is the X-men superhero story that can touch on social issues or Is it a book about social issues that happens to have superhumans in it? The X-men does lionshare of work no other comic imo comes close to if the X-men wanted they could put Iceman, Northstar, Shatterstar, Rictor, Prodigy, Pyro and Anole as team for a book/story note I am not excusing them from doing better but I am saying X-men can field a team of LGBTQ superheroes where something like Justice League or Avengers you will struggle to point out one.

X-men has a natural set up to parallel stories of minorities but X-men also still has to be entertaining superhero comic with action and adventure to sell. Other comics can cover these issue as well it is not alone in the comic world and forcing it to be everything in this area is unfair. That said X-men can and should do better but when I see many other big comics so woefully under equipped to tell these type certain of stories I see that problem is with industry not necessary the X-men. X-men can have convo with Darwin,Celia Reyes and Sunspot on what it it is to be Afro Latino, The X-men can have Moonstar, Forge, and Warpath talk about issue of Indigenous Americans. I guess my big point X-men is actually has good balance of social issues/super heroism but since other comics are so bad at it .We demand more from the X-men sometimes at detriment of X-men being a dope superhero book.

Yes. This is partly the issue I am referring to. The analogy can be used but does it register? Or maybe the question is does it need to register with everyone. Although Rahne’s death was in the middle of a very depressing volume that tried to do far too much, so perhaps it is unsurprising that it didn’t land with a wider readership. It was also very bleak.
?

If it does for some that is good enough. I spoke on it above it. X-men does not have to be everything that doesn't excuse it from being better in that area tho

[JKtheMac]

Is that feature or is that the comic? The X-men is a superhero comic how much responsibility should it have in areas like this? Is the X-men superhero story that can touch on social issues or Is it a book about social issues that happens to have superhumans in it?

I am not sure any of those questions have easy answers. The history of the comic line does tend to demand the latter to some extent. If it ceases to be a comic about social issues is it really still X-Men? It found its place by being this. It wasn’t born from whole cloth but it shifted to become this thing. It also shifted to become a soap opera, is that equally necessary?

The X-men does lionshare of work no other comic imo comes close to if the X-men wanted they could put Iceman, Northstar, Shatterstar, Rictor, Prodigy, Pyro and Anole as team for a book/story note I am not excusing them from doing better but I am saying X-men can field a team of LGBTQ superheroes where something like Justice League or Avengers you will struggle to point out one.

Yes certainly, over time it did much of the heavy lifting. We couldn’t have had Gillen’s Young Avengers without the path forged by X-Men. It is equally being pushed by comics outside of the big two. Should it continue to cede some of that ground as a trailblazer? Some may think it should. It was never the cutting edge, but rather the mainstream version of that.

Again, it comes down to how far we stretch analogy and equally whether some things still need to be analogous or just in the story. The analogy has always shifted and therefore what should it be doing right now?

If it does for some that is good enough. I spoke on it above it. X-men does not have to be everything that doesn't excuse it from being better in that area tho

Yes I think you are right. It doesn’t necessarily have to land with everyone. It would perhaps have a better chance of landing in a less broad context. How broad should the context be?

Mainly I was focusing on widening out the debate. Not criticising X-Men’s past so much as asking harder and less easy to define questions.

[skyvolt2000]

Issues in the LGBTQIAPK spectrum are all relevant to the mutant analogy, but some of them need an entire context that Marvel don’t seem eager to provide. Even tackling the issues at the left of the acronym seem difficult. Just ask Sina Grace how easy it is to write a book with a guy dating another guy. The amount of negative press that received from long time X-Men fans on otherwise mainstream podcasts and review pages was frankly embarrassing. The unconscious and non-reflective bias was palpable. How easy would it really be to seriously address trans issues or asexual issues if we still think Northstar is as far as comics can go?

When I met Leah Williams last week-she made an interesting point.

Because you are playing with SOMEONE ELSE'S toys-you can only do so much before you are asked to go back to that comfort zone the company has established.

See it's easier to do Midnighter sleeping with guys of color and Apollo because he was LGBTQ from day one. It's harder to do that with Iceman and his 50+ years. You could probably get away with that with Prodigy, The Doras or Kate Bishop's former lover in WCA.

X-Men will allow you get away with some stuff that others can't like an all LGBTQ X-Men team. You won't get past the announcement before you get death threats if you tried that with Avengers. Despite the fact you could get away with it because we have seen chapters of teams like West Coast Avengers.

How should the X-Men reflect this modern resurgence of bigotry?

Well it depends on how down and DIRTY you want to get. I mean no you know whats will be given.

Challenge Question:
If Hobie Brown (SpiderGwen universe version) got mutant powers-why would he join the X-Men? When he looks around and aside from Storm & Maggot-there are no other black mutants.
He is going to ask where are the folks who look like him at? Who is going to tell him how Synch died. Or the kids from God loves Man kills.

How bigotry is dealt with a Mutant of color is different from a white mutant? Is it like the same way we deal with shooters?
How many white mutants someone tried to get them help for the "illness"?
Did we not see Synch surrounded by cops when we saw him introduced?
Because this is not the Archie universe where it's black and white. You got folks who don't need MUCH to attack a POC or LGBTQ.

I don't think Marvel wants to go there.

[Huntsman Spider]

When I met Leah Williams last week-she made an interesting point.

Because you are playing with SOMEONE ELSE'S toys-you can only do so much before you are asked to go back to that comfort zone the company has established.

See it's easier to do Midnighter sleeping with guys of color and Apollo because he was LGBTQ from day one. It's harder to do that with Iceman and his 50+ years. You could probably get away with that with Prodigy, The Doras or Kate Bishop's former lover in WCA.

X-Men will allow you get away with some stuff that others can't like an all LGBTQ X-Men team. You won't get past the announcement before you get death threats if you tried that with Avengers. Despite the fact you could get away with it because we have seen chapters of teams like West Coast Avengers.



Well it depends on how down and DIRTY you want to get. I mean no you know whats will be given.

Challenge Question:
If Hobie Brown (SpiderGwen universe version) got mutant powers-why would he join the X-Men? When he looks around and aside from Storm & Maggot-there are no other black mutants.
He is going to ask where are the folks who look like him at? Who is going to tell him how Synch died. Or the kids from God loves Man kills.

How bigotry is dealt with a Mutant of color is different from a white mutant? Is it like the same way we deal with shooters?
How many white mutants someone tried to get them help for the "illness"?
Did we not see Synch surrounded by cops when we saw him introduced?
Because this is not the Archie universe where it's black and white. You got folks who don't need MUCH to attack a POC or LGBTQ.

I don't think Marvel wants to go there.

Hmm, interesting points you raise there. Speaking of Hobie Brown, considering that there's already a universe where he got spider-powers thanks to a spider that had been irradiated by toxic waste carelessly dumped by Oscorp and became an anarchist version of Spider-Man leading a punk rock revolution against President Norman Osborn's corrupt regime, it would be very interesting to see his reaction to the likes of the Avengers and the X-Men. While he'd probably side more with the X-Men than the Avengers, seeing the Avengers as propping up an oppressive system, I could also see him reacting poorly to the fact that the X-Men are being bankrolled by elite billionaires that happen to be mutants, finding it at best incongruous with the idea of fighting for the rights of all mutants to live free of persecution and at worst deeply hypocritical.

[JudicatorPrime]

X-Men has always had a message against bigotry and in modern times I think we have seen a re-emergence of white supremacy and people becoming more aware of structural racism. How should the X-Men reflect this modern resurgence of bigotry?

I'm not convinced that the X-Men writers can do anything that comes close to what we're experiencing in the real world with respect to America's original sin. Maybe if Stan had the courage to establish early on that only persons of color, especially from s****hole countries (paraphrasing the current US President), could be mutants -- including the population of the indigenous tribes of America as well. But if Stan did that, I doubt that the X-Men would have made it to the reprint years, let alone the Claremont-Byrne golden era. That alone is quite telling. So why bother? We already know how Marvel's readers react when Sam gets the shield.

[Electricmastro]

I'm not convinced that the X-Men writers can do anything that comes close to what we're experiencing in the real world with respect to America's original sin. Maybe if Stan had the courage to establish early on that only persons of color, especially from s****hole countries (paraphrasing the current US President), could be mutants -- including the population of the indigenous tribes of America as well. But if Stan did that, I doubt that the X-Men would have made it to the reprint years, let alone the Claremont-Byrne golden era. That alone is quite telling. So why bother? We already know how Marvel's readers react when Sam gets the shield.

One group suffering so that later generations may reap and prosper from the fruits of their suffered labor pretty much sums up every big civilization, from ancient Egypt to modern times like in Pakistan. When people tell me that X-Men is meant to parallel racial bigotry, I'm like, "in the 60s, 70s, and 80s stories, yeah, but in the 90s stories and beyond? I for some reason don't get that feeling as much." Modern X-Men's approach to mutants being persecuted feels so far away from the modern real world, despite the writers' best intentions, that I once again say a major status quo change is needed.

[JudicatorPrime]

One group suffering so that later generations may reap and prosper from the fruits of their suffered labor pretty much sums up every big civilization, from ancient Egypt to modern times like in Pakistan. When people tell me that X-Men is meant to parallel racial bigotry, I'm like, "in the 60s, 70s, and 80s stories, yeah, but in the 90s stories and beyond? I for some reason don't get that feeling as much." Modern X-Men's approach to mutants being persecuted feels so far away from the modern real world, despite the writers' best intentions, that I once again say a major status quo change is needed.

A writer's imagination has limits. Marvel's writers by and large have been the privileged class. I'm not knocking them for that, but the simple reality is real life experience trumps imagination and objective empathy every time.

I wasn't alive when my uncle was killed by violent racists. It's a story that I've heard from my mother, aunts and uncles. But the person who told it best was my grandfather...because he was the one who stayed up all day and all night for two days straight searching the countryside looking for his eight year old son. And he was the one who eventually found the body, the child's skull bashed in, the rope still around his neck, the body bloated from being left in the nearby watering hole. The best storytellers are those who lived it.

But Marvel writers can't bear all of the blame. Time makes us all much more thick-skinned about the pains that previous generations endured. And the hubris of younger generations is such that people often believe that they would have done something differently, forgetting that the human condition hasn't evolved as much as they'd like to believe. It's difficult for writers to re-create a convincing atmosphere and environment of oppression and persecution when the readers' minds are closed to it for whatever reason.

[salarta]

A writer's imagination has limits. Marvel's writers by and large have been the privileged class. I'm not knocking them for that, but the simple reality is real life experience trumps imagination and objective empathy every time.

I wasn't alive when my uncle was killed by violent racists. It's a story that I've heard from my mother, aunts and uncles. But the person who told it best was my grandfather...because he was the one who stayed up all day and all night for two days straight searching the countryside looking for his eight year old son. And he was the one who eventually found the body, the child's skull bashed in, the rope still around his neck, the body bloated from being left in the nearby watering hole. The best storytellers are those who lived it.

But Marvel writers can't bear all of the blame. Time makes us all much more thick-skinned about the pains that previous generations endured. And the hubris of younger generations is such that people often believe that they would have done something differently, forgetting that the human condition hasn't evolved as much as they'd like to believe. It's difficult for writers to re-create a convincing atmosphere and environment of oppression and persecution when the readers' minds are closed to it for whatever reason.

Agreed with all of this. Passage of time washes away the perceived seriousness of these matters, which is why it's gotten easier for Nazis to recruit as the generation that suffered from their evil or had to fight them in World War II passes away to leave only secondhand memories.

And the "would've done something different" crowd falls into the same egotistical self-perceptions as people who think, in a shooting incident, they would run in or whip out a gun and save the day. Nobody's ever going to truly know how they will react unless it actually happens to them. In sum, I agree with you that it's best to hire people who've experienced these things and can speak to what it's like. Or at the very least, getting people who've been through these things as consultants.

[Magnusilver]

The minorities parallel of X-men Franchise are way too behind time to a point that It's better to drop it than have it now. The entire franchise was looping around extinction story line for more than a decade before Hickman takes over and finally bring something new to it.

[mikelmcknight72]

X-Men has always had a message against bigotry and in modern times I think we have seen a re-emergence of white supremacy and people becoming more aware of structural racism. How should the X-Men reflect this modern resurgence of bigotry?

Do it the same way Claremont did. In the midst of the displays of prejudice, show non-prejudiced people speaking up against prejudice. Here are a few examples.

Uncanny X-Men Vol 1 Issue 210: The morning after a battle with the Hellfire Club and Nimrod, Rogue is flying through Manhattan. Seeing a window washing scaffold collapse, she rescues the window washers from falling to their deaths. Upon seeing how trashed her outfit is, she heads to a department store for a new outfit and to get her makeup done. While getting her makeup done, a crowd of witnesses to the rescue shows up. An especially bigoted man among them starts harassing her. Also among them is one of the men she rescued. He speaks out against the bigot in her defense.

God Loves, Man Kills - The cop who shoots Stryker to prevent him from hurting Kitty Pryde.

Show non-mutants who are either sympathetic to mutants or are outright allies of the X-Men, as he did with Sharon Friedlander, Tom Corsi, Peter Corbeau, Stevie Hunter, Carol Danvers, the Fantastic Four, etc.

Reflect the real world in which most folks are not bigots, but the few that are bigots get a lot of attention.

[Electricmastro]

Do it the same way Claremont did. In the midst of the displays of prejudice, show non-prejudiced people speaking up against prejudice. Here are a few examples.

Uncanny X-Men Vol 1 Issue 210: The morning after a battle with the Hellfire Club and Nimrod, Rogue is flying through Manhattan. Seeing a window washing scaffold collapse, she rescues the window washers from falling to their deaths. Upon seeing how trashed her outfit is, she heads to a department store for a new outfit and to get her makeup done. While getting her makeup done, a crowd of witnesses to the rescue shows up. An especially bigoted man among them starts harassing her. Also among them is one of the men she rescued. He speaks out against the bigot in her defense.

God Loves, Man Kills - The cop who shoots Stryker to prevent him from hurting Kitty Pryde.

Show non-mutants who are either sympathetic to mutants or are outright allies of the X-Men, as he did with Sharon Friedlander, Tom Corsi, Peter Corbeau, Stevie Hunter, Carol Danvers, the Fantastic Four, etc.

Reflect the real world in which most folks are not bigots, but the few that are bigots get a lot of attention.

Yep, the world can get bad, even ugly, very devastatingly so, but I don't think the world at its most ugly should overshadow the good and make the good seem less important. Life can get too complicated to call it all good or all bad. Not to mention, most people probably don't find that type of blunt storytelling interesting anyway.

[KangMiRae]

The X-Men should be an allegory for the persecution people who pour milk first then cereal get.