How should X-Men reflect the bigotry of modern times?

[TOTALITY]

Iceman, Northstar, Shatterstar, Rictor, Prodigy, Pyro and Anole

Yeah, I don’t want to erase these guys when I say X-Men isn’t the standard bearer it could be. There are certainly gay characters, and generally more than in other super teams. Would love if the stories themselves started to get queerer in form, though I’m not sure exactly what that would look like. Though it’s played a little like playful provocation, I have to say HOX1’s “Actually, Sophie’s my human name. I’m thinking of taking another” was actually an exciting little fragment to me!

[JKtheMac]

Is that feature or is that the comic? The X-men is a superhero comic how much responsibility should it have in areas like this? Is the X-men superhero story that can touch on social issues or Is it a book about social issues that happens to have superhumans in it?

I am not sure any of those questions have easy answers. The history of the comic line does tend to demand the latter to some extent. If it ceases to be a comic about social issues is it really still X-Men? It found its place by being this. It wasn’t born from whole cloth but it shifted to become this thing. It also shifted to become a soap opera, is that equally necessary?

The X-men does lionshare of work no other comic imo comes close to if the X-men wanted they could put Iceman, Northstar, Shatterstar, Rictor, Prodigy, Pyro and Anole as team for a book/story note I am not excusing them from doing better but I am saying X-men can field a team of LGBTQ superheroes where something like Justice League or Avengers you will struggle to point out one.

Yes certainly, over time it did much of the heavy lifting. We couldn’t have had Gillen’s Young Avengers without the path forged by X-Men. It is equally being pushed by comics outside of the big two. Should it continue to cede some of that ground as a trailblazer? Some may think it should. It was never the cutting edge, but rather the mainstream version of that.

Again, it comes down to how far we stretch analogy and equally whether some things still need to be analogous or just in the story. The analogy has always shifted and therefore what should it be doing right now?

If it does for some that is good enough. I spoke on it above it. X-men does not have to be everything that doesn't excuse it from being better in that area tho

Yes I think you are right. It doesn’t necessarily have to land with everyone. It would perhaps have a better chance of landing in a less broad context. How broad should the context be?

Mainly I was focusing on widening out the debate. Not criticising X-Men’s past so much as asking harder and less easy to define questions.

[Electricmastro]

Social Justice Warrior =\= person who fights for social justice. It carries implications that they are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction, and engaging in disingenuous arguments.

It was once described to me that social justice warrior is like basically attempting to implement manners in a fascist matter. Like, manners and well-intentions are good and all, but being a jerk about it, not as much.

[JKtheMac]

It was once described to me that social justice warrior is like basically attempting to implement manners in a fascist matter. Like, manners and well-intentions are good and all, but being a jerk about it, not as much.

We, and indeed the comics, have a cultural issue about fighting new battles as if they are the same old battles using old language. We are perhaps too quick to look at modern issues and draw the old Marxism vs Fascism lines, even when very few people in our world would currently fit into those easy categories. Kind of like you were trying to say about how race issues have moved on so has politics.

[Killerbee911]

Yeah, I don’t want to erase these guys when I say X-Men isn’t the standard bearer it could be. There are certainly gay characters, and generally more than in other super teams. Would love if the stories themselves started to get queerer in form, though I’m not sure exactly what that would look like. Though it’s played a little like playful provocation, I have to say HOX1’s “Actually, Sophie’s my human name. I’m thinking of taking another” was actually an exciting little fragment to me!

I wasn't implying the X-men were utilizing these character to best that they could do with them. I was just saying that X-men is ahead of curve of being able to integrate different viewpoints without "forcing" thing. I am saying Iceman, Rictor and Northstar could end up story together and the light bulb clicks to writer in this action story we can touch what it means to be a gay man as well. Where as something like Avengers it would be like hey we are introduce our first gay couple in the avengers because they barely have any ground work .I am saying the X-men has the flexibility after years being better at this than everyone else still we want more from them when other aren't doing half as good. If others were doing half as good we wouldn't be pressuring the X-men to do more than other comic do.

One of things I was annoyed with is when they made a big announcement of X-men all female team. The X-men for years have had teams with female ratio being way higher than males. They should have just went with like it was normal a book (Plus I mean we don't announce when X-men have all white member team , DoX X-force is all white people we get don't a announcement in 2019 hey look this all white team). The X-men can do good stuff like all female team and it feels natural that because putting in the work for diversity for years now.

Social Justice Warrior =\= person who fights for social justice.

I know it end up meaning to some people. It is just that the best description of someone like Martin Luther King Jr would be Social Justice Warrior and legit pursuit social justice and fighting for it will always be good however people want to twist it.

[Electricmastro]

We, and indeed the comics, have a cultural issue about fighting new battles as if they are the same old battles using old language. We are perhaps too quick to look at modern issues and draw the old Marxism vs Fascism lines, even when very few people in our world would currently fit into those easy categories. Kind of like you were trying to say about how race issues have moved on so has politics.

I don't deny America's problems, but I'll still acknowledge progress and the credit that it's due, as well as the people that have actively worked towards solutions as I should see them. I just try look at the good, the bad, and the ugly altogether, and the evidence, facts, and research to go along with it, as opposed to just relying on the internet's reactionary hearsay.

[JKtheMac]

One of things I was annoyed with is when they made a big announcement of X-men all female team. The X-men for years have had teams with female ratio being way higher than males. They should have just went with like it was normal a book.

I am not so sure this was as big a problem as it seemed. The problem seems mostly related to how these things get marketed. Marvel feel like they have a marketing team still living in the turn of the century, unable to cope with the click bait world. They are adept at creating headlines but totally inept at staying ahead of the story or controlling the message.

Nothing wrong with creating headlines about an all female team, but follow it up immediately with a ‘and so what’ message before others say it for you.

[JKtheMac]

I don't deny America's problems, but I'll still acknowledge progress and the credit that it's due, as well as the people that have actively worked towards solutions as I should see them. I just try look at the good, the bad, and the ugly altogether, and the evidence, facts, and research to go along with it, as opposed to just relying on the internet's reactionary hearsay.

Indeed. We all should do that. But I am reminded of Alan Moore getting upset about a respected academic discussing his long running rape themes.

Moore was the one shown to be way behind the times because instead of just quietly pointing out that his message was aimed at a different audience at a different time, and was a broadly progressive message at that time, he instead got super defensive and counterattacked against a perceived over zealous liberal perspective that wasn’t actually present in the critique. Not really gaining any fans in the process.

In other words it is very easy for the good guys to end up attacking other good guys because of noise.

Which could incidentally be a nice X-Men plot.

[Frobisher]

In other words it is very easy for the good guys to end up attacking other good guys because of noise.

Which could incidentally be a nice X-Men plot.

That’s a really interesting point, and I think people can easily forget that X-Men is a prism through which everyone sees something about their own condition. Xavier and Magneto may be like MLK and Malcolm X, but it’s also about youth alienation, sub-cultures, inter-generational conflict, LGBTQ, autistic spectrum disorders, hippies, goths, ravers, millennials, et cetera. There’s a bit theme about the fear that your children will be very different to you - something you may not understand - and it may leave you feeling irrelevant or obsolete. “Got to make way for the homo-superior”, as someone once sang. I think it’s clear that Grant Morrison really pushed the youth culture aspects of X-Men.

You can view X-Men as a race metaphor, or whatever you choose, but it’s really reductive to not see how it might affect others. I mean, it definitely is a race metaphor - Magneto’s radicalisation from his time in the death camps as a Jew makes his cause as a mutant explicit. But it’s also not.

[TOTALITY]

Social Justice Warrior =\= person who fights for social justice. It carries implications that they are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction, and engaging in disingenuous arguments.

The thing is, the people who use this term as a pejorative are almost never well-meaning allies, and the meaning you’re describing pretty much IS the negative connotation people are using it to invoke when trying to shut down talk of anything progressive. The idea that no one could hold such beliefs without selfish motivations. Not many people who use it would admit to being “against” “social” “justice”, they just happen to be skeptical that anyone is for it for the right reasons and somehow it’s never an appropriate or ‘unforced’ time to talk about it. If you do consider yourself to be for progressive ideals, then I would suggest that any energy spent on weeding out poser allies could be better spent weeding out people who always seem to have a problem with how aggressively others are advocating good things.

[BroHomo]

Not sure if you're being sarcastically jokey, but I think it's worth mentioning that despite how the Hulk has caused has caused massive destruction over and over again, and how that kind of stuff has him chased by the army and reported on the news, it's shown he has a number of supporters and has even been pardoned, as Thunderbolt Ross mentioned, which seems to be a heck of a lot more appreciation given to him than the X-Men ever got, at least in more recent times, despite not purposely causing destruction like the Hulk did.

this wasn't on Earth tho...

The thing is, the people who use this term as a pejorative are almost never well-meaning allies, and the meaning you’re describing pretty much IS the negative connotation people are using it to invoke when trying to shut down talk of anything progressive. The idea that no one could hold such beliefs without selfish motivations. Not many people who use it would admit to being “against” “social” “justice”, they just happen to be skeptical that anyone is for it for the right reasons and somehow it’s never an appropriate or ‘unforced’ time to talk about it. If you do consider yourself to be for progressive ideals, then I would suggest that any energy spent on weeding out poser allies could be better spent weeding out people who always seem to have a problem with how aggressively others are advocating good things.

Ha! Great Post Dude!!!

[ISnowNothin]

The thing is, the people who use this term as a pejorative are almost never well-meaning allies, and the meaning you’re describing pretty much IS the negative connotation people are using it to invoke when trying to shut down talk of anything progressive. The idea that no one could hold such beliefs without selfish motivations. Not many people who use it would admit to being “against” “social” “justice”, they just happen to be skeptical that anyone is for it for the right reasons and somehow it’s never an appropriate or ‘unforced’ time to talk about it. If you do consider yourself to be for progressive ideals, then I would suggest that any energy spent on weeding out poser allies could be better spent weeding out people who always seem to have a problem with how aggressively others are advocating good things.

Well said. Also worth noting, actual, used definitions for Social Justice Warrior, though classified as a pejorative/most typically used disparagingly, it does not ascribe any of the connotations or motivations (or lack thereof) that were mentioned above. It's simply an insult against those advocating a progressive orthodoxy.

[JKtheMac]

That’s a really interesting point, and I think people can easily forget that X-Men is a prism through which everyone sees something about their own condition. Xavier and Magneto may be like MLK and Malcolm X, but it’s also about youth alienation, sub-cultures, inter-generational conflict, LGBTQ, autistic spectrum disorders, hippies, goths, ravers, millennials, et cetera. There’s a bit theme about the fear that your children will be very different to you - something you may not understand - and it may leave you feeling irrelevant or obsolete. “Got to make way for the homo-superior”, as someone once sang. I think it’s clear that Grant Morrison really pushed the youth culture aspects of X-Men.

You can view X-Men as a race metaphor, or whatever you choose, but it’s really reductive to not see how it might affect others. I mean, it definitely is a race metaphor - Magneto’s radicalisation from his time in the death camps as a Jew makes his cause as a mutant explicit. But it’s also not.

Look at you winning me over with your casual Bowie references. Although I think I generally agree

But, my point is more that right now do we need X-Men to be all of those things? The metaphor has always been very broad. Should it remain so? Should it always be open to interpretation or should it get pointed occasionally. Does even that pointedness create a problem?

Personally I think you can be very pointed in the subtext of a comic but I have lost count of the number of times I have found myself debating the meaning of something and the subtext was apparently so below the surface it seemed possible to deny it was even there. Then a book like X-Men Blue comes along starts off with dragging the subtext into the text for all to see before mostly forgetting about it and getting lost in the plot.

Can we win here? Can we have both pointed subtext that actually lands and also zany superhero romps? It seems like only some writers are fully capable of this and some, if not most, find it incredibly difficult.

[JKtheMac]

The thing is, the people who use this term as a pejorative are almost never well-meaning allies,

This is the danger though. Because sometimes they are. Sometimes the language used comes from a place separate from the actual rhetoric. So for example a centrist who wants to try and bring reason to a polarised debate may use language that one or other side consider to be a signifier of a set of attitudes that the self appointed peace-maker does not share.

Why? Because they are culturally grounded by their use of language.

It is usually better to avoid disputed or heavily loaded phrases but that does necessitate us knowing what those phrases mean to everyone in the debate, and we don’t all have that luxury.

Hence my analogy to noise causing arguments.

(This is not as key in comics so much as politics, but we should also be aware that sometimes that noise is placed there deliberately to manipulate us and polarise us.)

[KOSLOX]

One thing I want is no more sentinels.

Where's the humans complaining about their homes being destroyed by the giant robot trying to capture a dude who's 'threatening' mutant ability is to turn cheese into chicken ? Wheres the anti-government types yelling about how THEIR taxes are being wasted on stupid giant robots when a dude in cheaper power armour could do the same job ? Etc

I think the sentinels could be used like the android/cyborgs in the Wolverine: Long Night/Lost Road podcasts. They could be used analogous to ICE or FBI (COINTELPRO).