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  1. #46
    Incredible Member Nazrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    The Government regulates cough syrup in what world do you think mutants wouldn't have logically measures to make sure they aren't a danger to themselves. Don't let bad part fiction mislead you. Mutants would be tested from birth and measure would be put in for everyone protection. So with that in mind look at large of the mutant population who proven not don't hurt anyone. Yeah it is NRA argument but the right NRA argument guns don't hurt if you proper rules in place
    You are correct, that would be the logical, sane thing to do... and were a non-mutant ethostate to attempt that, the X-men would fight tooth and nail against it, decrying it as oppression.
    Context is king.

    X-23's most basic surface level characteristic that any idiot should grasp: Stoicism.
    I don't demand that her every minor appearance be a nuance in-depth examination of her character, but is it to much to ask she be written in Archetype?! This is storytelling 101! If you want people to stay invested in a character, you need to, at the bare minimum, write them such a way that they can plausibly be believed to be the same character!

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    They shouldn't.

    Mutants are, and always have been, a terrible allegory.

    You have a phenomenon where people of any race or walk of life spontaneously manifest a random potentially lethal and destructive powers, they may not be able to control, at an age when when you wouldn't trust them to drive a car; which fails to even take into account the concerns raised by mind control, or those with a physiological need to feed on others.

    If you're trying to represent a discriminated against underprivileged group, their defining trait should not be Power, especially not say mind control or death rays firing uncontrollably out of their eyes, kept only in check by an external device, as those immediately raise legitimate concerns.

    They constantly push against any monitoring or regulation of their lethal and destructive powers, and are externally validated for this position by presenting a false dichotomy, where anyone pushing for such things are one dimensional pricks out for gulags, genocide, and prone to false flag attacks; presenting the idea that this, and no regulation are the only options; so they are never forced to confront how %&#@ their own position is.

    Divorced from any discrimination or intent, people would die just because mutants exist, an immolated playground would be a constant and reasonable concern. In universe people have died just because mutants existed; and this is in the fictional universe that is desperately trying to distract you from actually thinking about the implications it presents.

    Hell in an entirely mutant society, people would die, just because mutants exist.

    As much as they try to force the allegory, the closest real world parallels I find, are always with the %$#@ing NRA.

    They are a validation of their world view, they are the NRA as the NRA see themselves.
    In my opinion, a cohabitation between humans and mutants could only function if that the two parties take account of each other's needs: their need of security and their need of liberty. There is a balance to be found. It's a matter of trust.
    In a only-mutant society, there would be less a problem of trust and of hidden agenda.
    But I agree, the « mutant problem » is more than a problem of discrimination… Strangely, it's almost never seen this way from the mutant side: they only accuse the humans from discrimination.
    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    They shouldn't.
    Mutants are, and always have been, a terrible allegory.
    Nobody ever said they were an allegory. Perhaps this is why you don’t think it’s a good one. Because it isn’t one. It was always broader than a specific message or a narrowly defined metaphor.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  4. #49
    Amazing Member OblivionX33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    They shouldn't.

    Mutants are, and always have been, a terrible allegory.

    You have a phenomenon where people of any race or walk of life spontaneously manifest a random potentially lethal and destructive powers, they may not be able to control, at an age when when you wouldn't trust them to drive a car; which fails to even take into account the concerns raised by mind control, or those with a physiological need to feed on others.

    If you're trying to represent a discriminated against underprivileged group, their defining trait should not be Power, especially not say mind control or death rays firing uncontrollably out of their eyes, kept only in check by an external device, as those immediately raise legitimate concerns.

    They constantly push against any monitoring or regulation of their lethal and destructive powers, and are externally validated for this position by presenting a false dichotomy, where anyone pushing for such things are one dimensional pricks out for gulags, genocide, and prone to false flag attacks; presenting the idea that this, and no regulation are the only options; so they are never forced to confront how %&#@ their own position is.

    Divorced from any discrimination or intent, people would die just because mutants exist, an immolated playground would be a constant and reasonable concern. In universe people have died just because mutants existed; and this is in the fictional universe that is desperately trying to distract you from actually thinking about the implications it presents.

    Hell in an entirely mutant society, people would die, just because mutants exist.

    As much as they try to force the allegory, the closest real world parallels I find, are always with the %$#@ing NRA.

    They are a validation of their world view, they are the NRA as the NRA see themselves.
    You think its 1:1 and that's the problem.

  5. #50
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    One thing I want is no more sentinels.

    Where's the humans complaining about their homes being destroyed by the giant robot trying to capture a dude who's 'threatening' mutant ability is to turn cheese into chicken ? Wheres the anti-government types yelling about how THEIR taxes are being wasted on stupid giant robots when a dude in cheaper power armour could do the same job ? Etc
    Yeah, the Sentinels to me makes it seems more like an apocalyptic-esque scenario of “the judgers are carrying out a rapture against those judged to be sinners.” At that point, it seems more like a religious connotation than a racial one.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 08-13-2019 at 09:32 AM.

  6. #51

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    "SJW" has been a worthless term since its inception. Its only purpose was to have a smear for attacking anything remotely progressive. Replaced the equally worthless "white knight" term since it's broader. I never take "anti-SJW" takes seriously. Usage of the term by people opposed to progressive matters indicates to me that they aren't really thinking about the issues, just parroting what they've seen online and trying to be part of an "in-group."
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  7. #52
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Yeah, the Sentinels to me makes it seems more like an apocalyptic-esque scenario of “the judgers are carrying out a rapture against those judged to be sinners.” At that point, it seems more like a religious connotation than a racial one.
    This kind of makes me wonder why they don't bring back the Purifiers, but have them do the "trade in your combat boots and shaved head, for a "fashy" and suit and tie" arc.
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  8. #53
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    X-Men has always had a message against bigotry and in modern times I think we have seen a re-emergence of white supremacy and people becoming more aware of structural racism. How should the X-Men reflect this modern resurgence of bigotry?
    I'm not convinced that the X-Men writers can do anything that comes close to what we're experiencing in the real world with respect to America's original sin. Maybe if Stan had the courage to establish early on that only persons of color, especially from s****hole countries (paraphrasing the current US President), could be mutants -- including the population of the indigenous tribes of America as well. But if Stan did that, I doubt that the X-Men would have made it to the reprint years, let alone the Claremont-Byrne golden era. That alone is quite telling. So why bother? We already know how Marvel's readers react when Sam gets the shield.

  9. #54
    Mighty Member uebersoldat's Avatar
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    In as peaceful a way possible to say this - I ask that the powers that be just write good stories and let things like equality and love happen organically, not beat us over the head with our favorite characters as political mouth pieces for one party IRL.

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uebersoldat View Post
    You are outnumbered here by people that would change just about everything about existing canon if they could bend it to progressive ideals. Not meaning to offend here, it's just a statement of fact from what I've see browsing this forum the past few years.
    Not meaning to offend? One sure fire way to offend is to lump a huge number of posters into one group and then denigrate them.

    Honestly officer, the gun just went off in my hand.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uebersoldat View Post
    You are outnumbered here by people that would change just about everything about existing canon if they could bend it to progressive ideals. Not meaning to offend here, it's just a statement of fact from what I've see browsing this forum the past few years.
    Everyone “outnumbering” them have been using existing canon to make their points.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Everyone “outnumbering” them have been using existing canon to make their points.
    Right? The OP, that that quoted post is referencing, doesn't even hint or suggest anything about changing existing canon. The X-Men literally have always been about this. From the first issue, the prejudice and discrimination of Mutants was an issue. The Sentinels, the Friends of Humanity, the Purifiers, this has always been around.

    Pretending that this is new, or that discussing it is somehow advocating changing the canon, makes no sense and is literally provably false.

  13. #58
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ISnowNothin View Post
    Right? The OP, that that quoted post is referencing, doesn't even hint or suggest anything about changing existing canon. The X-Men literally have always been about this. From the first issue, the prejudice and discrimination of Mutants was an issue. The Sentinels, the Friends of Humanity, the Purifiers, this has always been around.

    Pretending that this is new, or that discussing it is somehow advocating changing the canon, makes no sense and is literally provably false.
    Mmmm. Not sure. When people asked Stan he just said mutants were a cool way to not have to come up with origin stories. “Their just mutants True Believers.”
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 08-13-2019 at 12:00 PM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  14. #59
    Mutant Midnighter NewMutant's Avatar
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    X-Men is great because it was a metaphor or allegory for minorities. To me, the thing that dates/holds back the modern X-Era is the lack of direction (which seems to be changing with HoX - and let me forever repeat the 05 coming back in time is not direction), lack social/cultural/technological commentary/philosophies, and diverse representation.

    Initially using mostly straight white males was a reflection of the time, but then also go those readers understanding and empathizing with minority culture more. Writers and stories varies on if the shift was from Jewish, to POC, to Women, to LGBTQ, etc. The problem is it's a franchise and they always want to go back to the popular characters which are a majority white men due to the date of creation. So now in 2019 a team representing equality shouldn't be just majority straight white men: Xavier, Magneto, Cyclops, Wolverine, Beast, Gambit, Havok, etc; or white people in general; Colossus, Nightcrawler, Banshee, etc all might not be American but they are still straight white men. These characters are great, I want them around, I want them used, and yes straight white men should of course be included in the overall representation as well. The fact that Bishop is the only straight male POC character and is B-List is crazy.

    The stories themselves have become so bland superhero generic. Think about the ever praised Claremont/Byrne run. The characters are all taken out of their element and go to other cultures and explore. We learn about the bigger world when they go to Japan, Russia, etc. Now a battle happens in Africa but rarely is actually exposing the reader to African culture.

    We are a smarter culture now, we are more connected through the internet, and the X-Titles need to adjust to properly reflecting the times. It's part of what made Morrison's run so popular. He modernized what it meant to be a mutant.
    I'm a fighter. I fight for normal people. But I'll never be one. I'm not a hero. Some people can't handle that.

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  15. #60
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I'm not convinced that the X-Men writers can do anything that comes close to what we're experiencing in the real world with respect to America's original sin. Maybe if Stan had the courage to establish early on that only persons of color, especially from s****hole countries (paraphrasing the current US President), could be mutants -- including the population of the indigenous tribes of America as well. But if Stan did that, I doubt that the X-Men would have made it to the reprint years, let alone the Claremont-Byrne golden era. That alone is quite telling. So why bother? We already know how Marvel's readers react when Sam gets the shield.
    One group suffering so that later generations may reap and prosper from the fruits of their suffered labor pretty much sums up every big civilization, from ancient Egypt to modern times like in Pakistan. When people tell me that X-Men is meant to parallel racial bigotry, I'm like, "in the 60s, 70s, and 80s stories, yeah, but in the 90s stories and beyond? I for some reason don't get that feeling as much." Modern X-Men's approach to mutants being persecuted feels so far away from the modern real world, despite the writers' best intentions, that I once again say a major status quo change is needed.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 08-13-2019 at 12:00 PM.

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