Page 5 of 19 FirstFirst 12345678915 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 272
  1. #61
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Bedford UK
    Posts
    10,024

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NewMutant View Post
    X-Men is great because it was a metaphor or allegory for minorities. To me, the thing that dates/holds back the modern X-Era is the lack of direction (which seems to be changing with HoX - and let me forever repeat the 05 coming back in time is not direction), lack social/cultural/technological commentary/philosophies, and diverse representation.
    And I will forever counter that because Bendis was cut short by at least half (if not significantly longer according to rumours) we will never be able to objectively judge his story. It was very much a part of the big, shifting mutant metaphor but the story just didn’t get told.
    ďAnd I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.Ē ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  2. #62
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    973

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NewMutant View Post
    X-Men is great because it was a metaphor or allegory for minorities. To me, the thing that dates/holds back the modern X-Era is the lack of direction (which seems to be changing with HoX - and let me forever repeat the 05 coming back in time is not direction), lack social/cultural/technological commentary/philosophies, and diverse representation.

    Initially using mostly straight white males was a reflection of the time, but then also go those readers understanding and empathizing with minority culture more. Writers and stories varies on if the shift was from Jewish, to POC, to Women, to LGBTQ, etc. The problem is it's a franchise and they always want to go back to the popular characters which are a majority white men due to the date of creation. So now in 2019 a team representing equality shouldn't be just majority straight white men: Xavier, Magneto, Cyclops, Wolverine, Beast, Gambit, Havok, etc; or white people in general; Colossus, Nightcrawler, Banshee, etc all might not be American but they are still straight white men. These characters are great, I want them around, I want them used, and yes straight white men should of course be included in the overall representation as well. The fact that Bishop is the only straight male POC character and is B-List is crazy.

    The stories themselves have become so bland superhero generic. Think about the ever praised Claremont/Byrne run. The characters are all taken out of their element and go to other cultures and explore. We learn about the bigger world when they go to Japan, Russia, etc. Now a battle happens in Africa but rarely is actually exposing the reader to African culture.

    We are a smarter culture now, we are more connected through the internet, and the X-Titles need to adjust to properly reflecting the times. It's part of what made Morrison's run so popular. He modernized what it meant to be a mutant.
    For some reason, the tone of your post gives me the impression that you talk of "straight white males" like they're incapable of being interesting and only surface-level aspects of identity matter.

    I mean, Henry Pym suffered from mental breakdowns and suicidal depression.

    Bruce Banner suffered from anger issues and was chased by the army for being a creature he didn't want to be.

    Peter Parker was made fun of, had money issues, and lost a family member due to his carelessness.

    Tony Stark had a heart condition and suffered from alcoholism.

    James Howlett repeatedly lost his loved ones and went trough a traumatizing experience at Weapon X.

    I mean, I get it. I get wanting more black heroes. I get wanting more gay heroes. I get wanting more female heroes.

    I get it. I really do, and I'm not saying the white male heroes' problems are exactly the same as what minorities go through, though that being said, would it be completely unreasonable for me to, at the very least, suggest the idea that maybe the reason many people always want to go back to those popular characters in particular, which happen to be white men, is because they're... humanly interesting?

    Just food for thought.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 08-13-2019 at 12:18 PM.

  3. #63
    Mutant Midnighter NewMutant's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    2,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    For some reason, the tone of your post gives me the impression that you talk of "straight white males" like they're incapable of being interesting and only surface-level aspects of identity matter.

    I mean, Henry Pym suffered from mental breakdowns and suicidal depression.

    Bruce Banner suffered from anger issues and was chased by the army for being a creature he didn't want to be.

    Peter Parker was made fun of, had money issues, and lost a family member due to his carelessness.

    Tony Stark had a heart condition and suffered from alcoholism.

    James Howlett repeatedly lost his loved ones and went trough a traumatizing experience at Weapon X.

    I mean, I get it. I get wanting more black heroes. I get wanting more gay heroes. I get wanting more female heroes.

    I get it. I really do, and I'm not saying the white male heroes' problems are exactly the same as what minorities go through, though that being said, would it be completely unreasonable for me to, at the very least, suggest the idea that maybe the reason many people always want to go back to those popular characters in particular, which happen to be white men, is because they're... humanly interesting?

    Just food for thought.
    I get your point. This is why I very specifically stated that I like these characters and feel they should be included. If I didn't there is no way I would have been a fan for so long. But it my belief that in modern times the X-Men suffers because it does a lot of tell and not show. Lets put our money where your mouth is in terms of messaging of the story. And this point is very X-Men specific.

    The argument then leads to sales vs creativity/messaging. Then rebooting or changing characters race/ethnicity/etc. Marvel was pretty much able to transition Nick Fury to black; but its technically a new character. That said old Nick Fury is never to be seen from anymore and due to the movies Nick Fury is pretty much just known as black now. OR casting Human Torch black in the recent Fantastic Four movie. Its still "controversial". More on topic.... Iceman came out and people had problems with it; yet that very frequently happens in real life. In a world where there are alien take overs, eye lasers, and the Phoenix, they don't believe that Iceman could come out later in life; which literally has happened in reality.

    If we can relate to anyone; then why not reflect that to an actual diverse cast, especially in title that is about being an outsider and celebrating diversity.
    I'm a fighter. I fight for normal people. But I'll never be one. I'm not a hero. Some people can't handle that.

    #midnightermonday

    Tumblr: http://newmutantmayhem.tumblr.com/

    IG: https://www.instagram.com/ginger_drew/

  4. #64
    Mutant Midnighter NewMutant's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    2,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    And I will forever counter that because Bendis was cut short by at least half (if not significantly longer according to rumours) we will never be able to objectively judge his story. It was very much a part of the big, shifting mutant metaphor but the story just didn’t get told.
    It's a plot point. It would have been decent mini series, even a 12 issues one, but that's it. We've wasted years on that crap that lead to nothing (and in my opinion hurt the quality of the franchise - which is not solely on Bendis). The only counter would be saying rebellious Cyclops and that's a character direction not a franchise direction. But I'm glad you enjoyed it if you did; I'm just glad its over. The only thing I feel that had any lasting affect was Iceman's outing (and as I later mentioned is controversial and not everyone responded well to that). I can't quickly think of one thing that Bendis did that actually added to the X-Mythos beyond that. Hickman has done more in 3 issues. I know Bendis run was cut short, but I'm pretty sure he chose to leave.

    And I LOVE Jessica Jones, New Avengers, and Dark Avengers. And obviously Miles Morales has been wildly impactful in MU. So I'm not specifically trying to hate on him, just not of fan of this work. But I will forever be grateful for his outing Iceman.
    I'm a fighter. I fight for normal people. But I'll never be one. I'm not a hero. Some people can't handle that.

    #midnightermonday

    Tumblr: http://newmutantmayhem.tumblr.com/

    IG: https://www.instagram.com/ginger_drew/

  5. #65
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    315

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    X-Men has always had a message against bigotry and in modern times I think we have seen a re-emergence of white supremacy and people becoming more aware of structural racism. How should the X-Men reflect this modern resurgence of bigotry?
    Do it the same way Claremont did. In the midst of the displays of prejudice, show non-prejudiced people speaking up against prejudice. Here are a few examples.

    Uncanny X-Men Vol 1 Issue 210: The morning after a battle with the Hellfire Club and Nimrod, Rogue is flying through Manhattan. Seeing a window washing scaffold collapse, she rescues the window washers from falling to their deaths. Upon seeing how trashed her outfit is, she heads to a department store for a new outfit and to get her makeup done. While getting her makeup done, a crowd of witnesses to the rescue shows up. An especially bigoted man among them starts harassing her. Also among them is one of the men she rescued. He speaks out against the bigot in her defense.

    God Loves, Man Kills - The cop who shoots Stryker to prevent him from hurting Kitty Pryde.

    Show non-mutants who are either sympathetic to mutants or are outright allies of the X-Men, as he did with Sharon Friedlander, Tom Corsi, Peter Corbeau, Stevie Hunter, Carol Danvers, the Fantastic Four, etc.

    Reflect the real world in which most folks are not bigots, but the few that are bigots get a lot of attention.

  6. #66
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Bedford UK
    Posts
    10,024

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NewMutant View Post
    It's a plot point. It would have been decent mini series, even a 12 issues one, but that's it. We've wasted years on that crap that lead to nothing (and in my opinion hurt the quality of the franchise - which is not solely on Bendis). The only counter would be saying rebellious Cyclops and that's a character direction not a franchise direction. But I'm glad you enjoyed it if you did; I'm just glad its over. The only thing I feel that had any lasting affect was Iceman's outing (and as I later mentioned is controversial and not everyone responded well to that). I can't quickly think of one thing that Bendis did that actually added to the X-Mythos beyond that. Hickman has done more in 3 issues. I know Bendis run was cut short, but I'm pretty sure he chose to leave.
    You say a lot of things I totally disagree with and so be it, but we know Bendis didn’t plan to leave X-Men. He was pulled from the book when Marvel decided they didn’t want their top writer in terms of sales on a book that they didn’t want to push. Suddenly Iron Man was a huge priority and it was going to be all about positioning him as a key personality, until it wasn’t of course, because that was always just an excuse.

    It is also pretty easy to discern what Bendis wanted to do with the O5 and not only did he not get to do it, Bunn did his own thing. No wonder some people think it was pointless. We never got to the point. It was pointless in retrospect not in principle.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 08-13-2019 at 03:32 PM.
    ďAnd I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.Ē ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Grey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    I'll just repeat what I said elsewhere:

    I've come to the conclusion that the mutants are as feared as much as they are in the Marvel Universe because the writers are writing them like they're still in the 1960s, if not, in a more backwards time, all while the Fantastic Four and other mutate superheroes are relatively treated less harshly despite also having supernatural powers like the mutants do.

    I think the human/mutant relations is portrayed as a little too backwards/non-progressive, perhaps more than it should. I realize the X-Men were created to serve as a parallel to the Civil Rights Movement and persecuted minorities in 1963, but on the other hand, we're not in 1963 anymore and, at the very least, I think it's reasonable enough to say that the world in 2019 isn't quite the same as it was in 1963.

    Yes, there's still hatred in 2019. Yes, there's still racism in 2019. Yes, there's still scapegoating of groups of various backgrounds to the point of suffering in 2019. I'm not denying any of that. At the same time though, considering how there are quite a few successful celebrities of minority backgrounds, such as black actors, black athletes, black comedians, black musicians that are popular and respected by the public by and large, which are situations that can also help spread a message of equality to them, as well as there being numerous black politicians, and America in 2019 just being in a distinctly different place than how it was in 1963, all aspects considered overall and kept in mind, then I'd like to see a shake-up in the human/mutant dynamic in the series.

    I'm definitely not saying to get rid of the minority persecution aspect of the series, as black celebrities don't always have it peachy keen either. I guess I just think that having a more "human-embracing" aspect towards mutants in addition would make for a more interesting shake-up in the current status quo, which at many times can seem to pigeonhole mutants as seemingly being only destined to suffer. As well as it how it help the series be more interestingly progressive rather than uninterestingly (and perhaps over-depressingly) regressive. The human vs. mutants relation just ends up seeming more like a demon hunters vs. demons relation, resulting in more of a commentary of religion rather than other aspects such as race, despite many writers' intentions.
    It’s not just about sharing superpowers like famous superheros.

    A lot of it is also people thinking mutants are genetic freaks in their eyes. Like something is wrong with them or they are genetic and evolutionary mistakes. Inferior creatures. Crimes against nature.

    Just like real life.

    For some it’s also a fear that since mutants are born they could genetically replace humans evernualllt. In theory. This probably scares people into being prejudiced.

    Also there have been plenty of mutant embracing humans shown in marvel 616. It’s just that the hating variety are louder, more organized, more determined- whereas a lot o people who are indifferent don’t feel a need to stand up for mutants.

    Just like in real life.

    Point is I just don’t see why the xmen existing In a world with revered superheros takes anything away from their struggle. There are multiple facets to mutant hate.

    Back to the topic question, I’m not the most creative thinker so I don’t have any specifics.
    Last edited by Grey; 08-13-2019 at 03:17 PM.
    Your favorite superhero- the one you visit these forums to talk about. Would they talk to others the way you do on this message board?

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Grey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Well, if it were me, I'd make the emphasis on tearing down the BS used to justify such terrible things. Less lip service terms, more psychology. But that's just me, and doesn't really seem like what people want.
    Have some specific ideas? Iíd like to hear.
    Your favorite superhero- the one you visit these forums to talk about. Would they talk to others the way you do on this message board?

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Grey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    One thing I want is no more sentinels.

    Where's the humans complaining about their homes being destroyed by the giant robot trying to capture a dude who's 'threatening' mutant ability is to turn cheese into chicken ? Wheres the anti-government types yelling about how THEIR taxes are being wasted on stupid giant robots when a dude in cheaper power armour could do the same job ? Etc
    Where is the anti government type who is mad that their tax dollars are being used to oppress harmless immigrants? I assume they donít speak up because they figure itís better to oppress harmless ones to get to the dangerous ones, or they dislike all immigrants (I.e. mutants)

    My question is rhetorical. The point is that the type of people that are irrationally silent in 616 marvel are representative in our world was well. So the lack of backlash you see from sentinels in 616 itself is representative of our world.
    Your favorite superhero- the one you visit these forums to talk about. Would they talk to others the way you do on this message board?

  10. #70
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    210

    Default

    I don't really know how things are in the States now, all I see is what is reported over here. What I do know is what things are like in the UK. At the moment I think it is pretty frightening how regressive the past few years have been. In my opinion the UK has gone seriously backwards and bigotry and hatred of minorities is at its worst since the 80s. It seems to be being encouraged by those in power, and by those running the media as well. There has been a huge rise in hate crime and far right activity since the vote for us to leave the EU.

    I think if this is also the case in the US, and from some of the things I've seen it appears to be, then the X-Men are uniquely placed in the comics medium to challenge this.

    The long history of the fight for their right to co-exist in a world that hates and fears them positions the franchise perfectly to show reality allegorically. How best to do it though? It has long been my view, expressed a few times on here, that the only way to go to be properly inclusive is to, if you like, over represent all minorities. Women, people of colour and LGBTQ people have been hugely underrepresented for decades. To such an extent that it is still not seen as the norm when, for example, a black hero is part of a team.

    Marvel should probably publish a completely diverse X-Men book, just completely leave out white men, it will sell, I'd buy it! Address issues of race, religion, gender etc. Even address them using the mutant allegory, but do it bloody obviously. Make everyone know what the book is actually railing against.

  11. #71
    Mutant Midnighter NewMutant's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    2,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    You say a lot of things I totally disagree with and so be it, but we know Bendis didn’t plan to leave X-Men. He was pulled from the book when Marvel decided they didn’t want their top writer in terms of sales on a book that they didn’t want to push. Suddenly Iron Man was a huge priority and it was going to be all about positioning him as a key personality, until it wasn’t of course, because that was always just an excuse.

    It is also pretty easy to discern what Bendis wanted to do with the O5 and not only did he not get to do it, Bunn did his own thing. No wonder some people think it was pointless. We never got to the point. It was pointless in retrospect not in principle.
    This could be 100%. I have no idea. I don't recall seeing articles on it one way or the other. We know the Editorial isn't easy on creatives AND Marvel was anti-X-Men for a while. I hope Bendis spills the beans on what really went down one day. But either way I was not a fan of most of the content from his X-Run.
    I'm a fighter. I fight for normal people. But I'll never be one. I'm not a hero. Some people can't handle that.

    #midnightermonday

    Tumblr: http://newmutantmayhem.tumblr.com/

    IG: https://www.instagram.com/ginger_drew/

  12. #72

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    Have some specific ideas? Iíd like to hear.
    Modern day bigotry utilizes gaslighting, misinformation, little tricks to foster and reward in-group behavior, love-bombing, brigading (often paired with bots), and a whole host of other similar tactics. Plus sometimes exploiting loopholes in laws that government hasn't reached yet, such as SWATting and doxxing. Any true modern day approach to X-Men dealing with bigotry would involve dealing with these matters. They're all either psychological ploys or are intended to cause psychological harm on targets.

    Marvel and the X-Men office would never pursue this, though. It would be too risky for the company and for employees personally. We've seen what bigots will do just when they don't like diverse characters in comics. Imagine how far they'd go if their tactics were getting eviscerated and revealed for what they are as a regular feature of the comics.
    I can also be reached on Twitter and WordPress.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad, now complete!

  13. #73
    Incredible Member dkrook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    976

    Default

    How can they when 98% of the writers are bigoted against black males as X-Men. When the x-office went in on pushing the Cyclops and Wolverine kick-ass show, including some background drawn characters as their teammates. I love Hickman's work and style of writing, so I'm waiting to see how he closes his series out.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    The Cosmic Shores of the Pacific
    Posts
    4,738

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    One group suffering so that later generations may reap and prosper from the fruits of their suffered labor pretty much sums up every big civilization, from ancient Egypt to modern times like in Pakistan. When people tell me that X-Men is meant to parallel racial bigotry, I'm like, "in the 60s, 70s, and 80s stories, yeah, but in the 90s stories and beyond? I for some reason don't get that feeling as much." Modern X-Men's approach to mutants being persecuted feels so far away from the modern real world, despite the writers' best intentions, that I once again say a major status quo change is needed.
    A writer's imagination has limits. Marvel's writers by and large have been the privileged class. I'm not knocking them for that, but the simple reality is real life experience trumps imagination and objective empathy every time.

    I wasn't alive when my uncle was killed by violent racists. It's a story that I've heard from my mother, aunts and uncles. But the person who told it best was my grandfather...because he was the one who stayed up all day and all night for two days straight searching the countryside looking for his eight year old son. And he was the one who eventually found the body, the child's skull bashed in, the rope still around his neck, the body bloated from being left in the nearby watering hole. The best storytellers are those who lived it.

    But Marvel writers can't bear all of the blame. Time makes us all much more thick-skinned about the pains that previous generations endured. And the hubris of younger generations is such that people often believe that they would have done something differently, forgetting that the human condition hasn't evolved as much as they'd like to believe. It's difficult for writers to re-create a convincing atmosphere and environment of oppression and persecution when the readers' minds are closed to it for whatever reason.
    Last edited by JudicatorPrime; 08-13-2019 at 08:33 PM.

  15. #75
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    973

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    Do it the same way Claremont did. In the midst of the displays of prejudice, show non-prejudiced people speaking up against prejudice. Here are a few examples.

    Uncanny X-Men Vol 1 Issue 210: The morning after a battle with the Hellfire Club and Nimrod, Rogue is flying through Manhattan. Seeing a window washing scaffold collapse, she rescues the window washers from falling to their deaths. Upon seeing how trashed her outfit is, she heads to a department store for a new outfit and to get her makeup done. While getting her makeup done, a crowd of witnesses to the rescue shows up. An especially bigoted man among them starts harassing her. Also among them is one of the men she rescued. He speaks out against the bigot in her defense.

    God Loves, Man Kills - The cop who shoots Stryker to prevent him from hurting Kitty Pryde.

    Show non-mutants who are either sympathetic to mutants or are outright allies of the X-Men, as he did with Sharon Friedlander, Tom Corsi, Peter Corbeau, Stevie Hunter, Carol Danvers, the Fantastic Four, etc.

    Reflect the real world in which most folks are not bigots, but the few that are bigots get a lot of attention.
    Yep, the world can get bad, even ugly, very devastatingly so, but I don't think the world at its most ugly should overshadow the good and make the good seem less important. Life can get too complicated to call it all good or all bad. Not to mention, most people probably don't find that type of blunt storytelling interesting anyway.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •