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  1. #346
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    I think it’s odd Xavier was walking with Moira in the park, and in a wheelchair on Island M.

  2. #347
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomoSuperior View Post
    Yes, there are only sixth deaths explicitly mentioned. I’m leaning toward all ten are happening at once and some are being snuffed out til only one remains. Calls to mind Hickman's Secret Wars: Molecule Man was said to be singular and spread across all multiverses as a sort of bomb that was supposed to go off. In this case perhaps Moira is spread across ten timelines simultaneously accumulating knowledge after each death and waiting for her powers to kick in at 13. Seems to fit the series exponential notation.
    But the whole point of these lives is that she’s carrying the memories from each one to the next, consecutively. And the stakes as presented are that she presumably has this one last chance to get things right (whatever that means to her after her experiences with Apocalypse.) I’m not saying what you’re suggesting isn’t possible, just that it feels like tacking the twist from The Sixth Sense on to When Harry Met Sally or something. Like.. it would be unexpected, or a cool sci-fi concept in this case, but to what end?

    I don’t think Hickman is messing with us. He’s being clear and precise in his delivery as a matter of necessity for the sheer volume of ideas he’s asking everyone to absorb. Every new development is a “yes, and..” and I don’t see any reason to expect them to start being “actually, about that..” He has enough to clean up and clarify from decades of other people’s stories without writing something in issue 2 to amend in issue 5. If he wants to add a new room to the house, it doesn’t have to be a smaller room within a room he already built. It’s his story; he can just add a new wing.

    (

  3. #348
    Incredible Member HomoSuperior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneTitan View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GooNhOIMY0

    This video explains the Kardashev Scale. I am fascinated with this now that I know about it from POX 2!
    I’m inclined to enjoy that guy but that video was a lot of unsubstantiated woo. He asserts all this these things then , midway, says multiple times, “we no evidence of type 1, 2, or 3.”

    It’s all baseless constructs attempting to bring order to the universe’s natural state which evidence says is... entropy. I mean, my desk is always trying to become a mess. Not self organize into a higher ordered state.

    Stay in school kids.
    Last edited by HomoSuperior; 08-15-2019 at 09:37 PM.

  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I think it’s odd Xavier was walking with Moira in the park, and in a wheelchair on Island M.
    I think it just lends more credence to the fact Year 1 is just shorthand for "the early years" I'm pretty sure that Xavier and Moira have already established the X-Men and clashed with Magneto several times already.

    I would be surprised if "Year 1" Goes all the way until the genocide at Genosha.

  5. #350
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I think it’s odd Xavier was walking with Moira in the park, and in a wheelchair on Island M.
    It has to be deliberate since nothing about this has been careless (save the one timeline gaffe Hickman tweeted about) and it seems extremely likely to be because the Island M meeting is in fact meant to be much later, despite them both being labeled “year 1.” The year 1 designation must be loose or relative, because as much as that doesn’t seem to fit, those two meetings occurring in the same year fits even less.

    For an extremely thorough breakdown that I think makes it hard to argue that the Island M meeting is any other time but circa UXM #150, check out the latest of the great annotations from House to Astonish: https://www.housetoastonish.com/?p=4686#more-4686 ... the sections on page 3-7, “the timeline” and “Island M”

  6. #351
    Incredible Member HomoSuperior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I think it’s odd Xavier was walking with Moira in the park, and in a wheelchair on Island M.
    Good catch. I’m going to go with all these are happening at once per the ten timelines matrix and we are witnessing cross-cutting snapshots. We are all relying on Moira’s lives as context but I haven’t seen evidence that means a single one in linear sequence. Quite the contrary actually. In HOX2 we got a fast overview of her many lives/timelines. Perhaps in some Xavier is in a wheelchair. In others the timeline is more progressed and maybe he never lost the use of his legs. In others maybe he lost the use but then found some way to regain his ability to walk. In short, perhaps it’s all true and once Hickman has completed his story he will have borrowed from many timelines.
    Last edited by HomoSuperior; 08-15-2019 at 10:04 PM. Reason: Really bad at computers

  7. #352
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I think it’s odd Xavier was walking with Moira in the park, and in a wheelchair on Island M.
    Not at all. The powers of 10 are just orders of measures and each "year" tells a story that could last longer and is related to an era.

    Year one is the time for building "the dream", year ten "the world" - Krakoa and House of X, year one hundred the time for "the war, and finally year one thousand is about the "ascension".

    Back to the dream, year one, it's all happening according to Moira X timeline as shown in HoX#2. She's 17 when she meets Xavier at the fair - probably in Oxford- and Xavier walks. The scene is that issue happens when she's 43 "Moira and Xavier recruit Magneto" - and Xavier is in his classic wheelchair.

    We know also that "the world" starts with Krakoa and the foundation of the House of X. And then Moira X is 52 years old.
    Last edited by Abe; 08-15-2019 at 11:42 PM.
    - To Tammy and the Blue Rose !

  8. #353
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    About X^2, the war, I don't think it's the endless war of Moira IX. Like JK and others I can't see why Hickman would have mixed together eras from the various life of Moira. I think that he wants to tell the story of her plan, during her Xth life, and it had to be a plan for a millennium and even more. That's the story, and the plan implies "all mutantdom as one" to "break the rules" - even Apocalypse obviously. So for me there's no need to set "the war" in her 9th life - but I'm sure we'll learn more about that life later.

    For the war in her 10th life the end will come earlier, maybe by changing the "Genesis protocols/versions/Nimrod" : understanding why the Machines are against mutant and at least trying to change that programmation?

    I would add also that nothing forbids that in her 9th life too Sinister was used to make Chimeras.... Or that at the end of it the Phalanx arrived not to propose ascension, but rather to erase that messy planet. The Phalanx or some "universal predators" interested in Earth's "Celestial ressources". Moira would then be more conscious of the path to follow.



    More random thoughts and specs and questions...
    Isn't the X-gene due to the Celestials? What could be the relationship between the Phalanx and those big guys with wonderful Kirby design? Conflicted? Could Hickman try to use that to explain why the previous Phalanx couldn't absorb mutants ?(I learned about that story in this very thread btw...)

    I have also like others the feeling that there could be more to the plan in year one thousand than simply joining the Phalanx - subverting it maybe?

    And what about the blue post-humans btw? Could they be related in a way to Apocalypse's technology?

    And what about the Shi'ar?

    (And sorry about the probably bad English... it's not my language... )
    Last edited by Abe; 08-16-2019 at 12:23 AM.
    - To Tammy and the Blue Rose !

  9. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by loke13 View Post
    I think it just lends more credence to the fact Year 1 is just shorthand for "the early years" I'm pretty sure that Xavier and Moira have already established the X-Men and clashed with Magneto several times already.

    I would be surprised if "Year 1" Goes all the way until the genocide at Genosha.
    It is shorthand for that, JDW has explained it a couple times in recent interviews, it's meant to be orders of magnitude. 0-10 is Year 1. 10-100 is year 10, 100-1000 is year 100, and 1000-10000 is year 1000. It's why it's called Powers of X as in Powers of 10.

    I get why they did it, but it makes things super confusing.

  10. #355
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomoSuperior View Post
    Not sure I agree. Prior to HOX, Destiny’s most consequential role was killing Senator Kelly with a crossbow which resulted in DOFP. That inspired Kate Pryde to make the trip back to the present and foul Destiny’s shot in order to prevent DOFP.

    Attachment 85816

    But this raises a good point. At this point, what IS the difference between Moira and Destiny?

    Destiny - has knowledge of future events based on precog powers. Has demonstrated she is willing to alter the timeline by choosing to not be a passive observer. Currently back from the dead either through an AU version or? — regardless, demonstrating she can be reborn (somehow).

    Moira — has knowledge of future events based on reincarnation powers. Currently back from the dead and altering the timeline by choosing to not be a passive observer.
    I think this seems to be a common claim coming up in threads, that somehow Moira sees the future. Moira doesn’t and can’t have knowledge of future events. She only knows the variables and constants that will come into play. It is heavily implied that every time the universe will be different even if she doesn’t act, or acts the same, so effectively she is reacting to events like everyone else.

    The difference is, she is changing the course of the future as it was supposed to be and using her knowledge of people she has previously met and events that they may be inclined to play a part in. So for example if she does not do anything to actively change it a Trask will build sentinels, but she now knows that even if she tries her hardest to stop it they will still be created somehow. So to control or be prepared for that constant event and a few others like them she needs to plan, analyse, project, gather data and guess, just like anyone else.

    So she is like the counterpart to Destiny. Destiny sees events that will happen and works to change them in her favour. Moira only sees events from her past lives and has no real knowledge of the future, but can change things to arrange the right people and circumstances to be better prepared to direct events as they happen.

    You could think of it as a chess analogy. Moira knows the pieces and has a vague grasp of the rules she has gleaned. She can influence a few plays to attempt to arrange the pieces batter. Destiny sees how the game will go in the future and can perceive the rules as they play out, and she can equally influence a few plays to change what she sees will happen.

    Neither have perfect knowledge. They compliment each other.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 08-16-2019 at 01:37 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  11. #356
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abe View Post
    About X^2, the war, I don't think it's the endless war of Moira IX. Like JK and others I can't see why Hickman would have mixed together eras from the various life of Moira. I think that he wants to tell the story of her plan, during her Xth life, and it had to be a plan for a millennium and even more. That's the story, and the plan implies "all mutantdom as one" to "break the rules" - even Apocalypse obviously. So for me there's no need to set "the war" in her 9th life - but I'm sure we'll learn more about that life later.

    For the war in her 10th life the end will come earlier, maybe by changing the "Genesis protocols/versions/Nimrod" : understanding why the Machines are against mutant and at least trying to change that programmation?

    I would add also that nothing forbids that in her 9th life too Sinister was used to make Chimeras.... Or that at the end of it the Phalanx arrived not to propose ascension, but rather to erase that messy planet. The Phalanx or some "universal predators" interested in Earth's "Celestial ressources". Moira would then be more conscious of the path to follow.



    More random thoughts and specs and questions...
    Isn't the X-gene due to the Celestials? What could be the relationship between the Phalanx and those big guys with wonderful Kirby design? Conflicted? Could Hickman try to use that to explain why the previous Phalanx couldn't absorb mutants ?(I learned about that story in this very thread btw...)

    I have also like others the feeling that there could be more to the plan in year one thousand than simply joining the Phalanx - subverting it maybe?

    And what about the blue post-humans btw? Could they be related in a way to Apocalypse's technology?

    And what about the Shi'ar?

    (And sorry about the probably bad English... it's not my language... )
    Honestly, I thought the English was pretty solid.

    As for the Shi'ar, they(to me...) aren't quite as interesting as The Brood.

    Factoring in things as of this week, The Brood may very well be the biggest question mark in that scenario.

  12. #357
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Jesus effing Christ. I didn’t think it was going to be possible for Hickman to take the complex themes of evolution that Morrison was able to weave into a comprehensive drama but holeee sheeet. Galactic evolution. Something NEW and BIG.
    New for the X-Men. The Kardashev scale of civilisations is a conjecture that is very common in science fiction and SETI make use of it to plan their efforts. So Hickman is cleverly pulling together some sci-fi concepts, some scientific conjectures and some messy canon regards alt-futures and shaping them to his ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    All three time-stories are headed for disaster. That’s the only thing that feels true.
    All three are headed for crunch points. Moments in what Moira has planned that could go either way and perhaps need her influence to nudge them in the right direction.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 08-16-2019 at 02:01 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  13. #358
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinism View Post
    Something I haven't seen mentioned is that when Destiny told her that she would live 10/11 lives, at that point, Moira would KNOW that lives 4-9 are failures and that she will die. That means she wouldn't be trying to win in those lives but to gather as much info on as many possibilities and ways to win as should to carry information on to life 10/11. Right? Or am I crazy?
    Well that’s actually a little vague. If Moira stopped to think about it she might realise that Destiny can only see events as they transpire. She doesn’t actually know if Moira wouldn’t reset if she died before she was 13 unless she actually saw it. How could she see that if it never happens? That’s actually more of a threat. ‘I think I know how to kill you’.

    Destiny would not necessarily be able to see how Moira actively changes things. So Destiny is using what she can see to try and influence Moira. We may even have seen ‘maybe 11’ lives already given that rogue blank panel, so Moira may be on the last life she has. Not because her power will run out or because she will not reach 13 next time, but because she is making the right choices to ensure this is her last life.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  14. #359
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geogeo999 View Post
    So, I'm with you 100%. Not arguing X^2 is Life 9 at all. The next line I posted is a question of "is there anything else supporting it?" And then I spent a couple paragraphs arguing against it. This one line of code seems to be the only piece of evidence I can see. But there is a code during the life 2 segment in House of X 2 that is ML_2A and ML_2B... which is why I can see people thinking ML_9 is her life 9.

    Genuinely I am curious if there's any other argument for this theory. Because the codes are there to make us wonder and dig deeper but until we know what source of info these pages are coming from... is it the library? is it Krakoa? Is it extracted directly from Moira's brain?,,, we can't with certaintly deciper the code. Also... there were like 12 typos in House of X 1, some of them in the timeline and in crucial places. Who knows if the 09 isnt supposed to be 10. Or maybe the 09 is related to theta which Moira is linked to.
    I was’t arguing against what you said. Just using your text to make a different point. Hence the crop. We have discussed here somewhere that the way Apocalypse interacts with the Sarcophagus could indicate that Moira is the other person on Asteroid K and that could potentially suggest that X^2 is actually the forever war from M9. I don’t think it is that timeline but that’s not to say Moira isn’t in the box.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  15. #360
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomoSuperior View Post
    I’m inclined to enjoy that guy but that video was a lot of unsubstantiated woo. He asserts all this these things then , midway, says multiple times, “we no evidence of type 1, 2, or 3.”

    It’s all baseless constructs attempting to bring order to the universe’s natural state which evidence says is... entropy. I mean, my desk is always trying to become a mess. Not self organize into a higher ordered state.

    Stay in school kids.
    The scale is only a theoretical construct based on conjecture. What it allows us to do is use the spectra from galaxies to assertain whether there is a class III out there somewhere. We would be able to detect their waste heat unless they know more about fundamental laws of physics than us, which seems unlikely based on our knowledge of thermodynamics.

    So far our surveys have found none, so it’s possible Type III civilisations just can’t exist. But again we are guessing how galactic civilisations might work. We have no idea.

    It’s convincing enough to convince an underfunded SETI to put some of their money into such things. Nothing more.

    https://sites.psu.edu/astrowright/20...civilizations/

    It’s interesting science that expands our knowledge in ways both tangential to extraterrestrials, and philosophically in our approach to how we think about our place in the wider universe.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 08-16-2019 at 02:38 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

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